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Re: [John_Lit] John 21

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  • geomelick@AOL.com
    Dear Piet: Thank you for your response to my post of May 28th. Addressing points 1 and 6 first, these are the basic hypotheses of my theory. That Mark was
    Message 1 of 20 , May 29, 2004
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      Dear Piet:

      Thank you for your response to my post of May 28th. Addressing points 1 and
      6 first, these are the basic hypotheses of my theory. That Mark was Peter's
      actual son is based on a literal reading of 1 Peter 5:13 (Oecumenius, Bengel,
      Alford, F. C. Grant, and William Barclay). That he was the BD was suggested by
      J. Wellhausen, J. Weiss, and Pierson Parker. Considering the long history of
      these separate identifications, it is surprising that no one else to my
      knowledge has combined them.

      Concerning point 2, the BD (Mark) was in the boat, not on shore. Jesus
      called out, "Children, have you any fish?". My interpretation is that he called
      out to children, Mark and another boy (point 3). Concerning point 4, asking if
      Mark could come along hardly seems out of place. I am not the first to
      suggest that 153 is the actual number of fish caught (point 5).

      Like Fortna, I maintain that 4E followed the source accurately sometimes, and
      at others took great liberties. I see no problem in assuming that 4E quoted
      the number of fish as found in the source, but rewrote the dialog between
      Jesus and Peter.

      George

      George Melick, MA
      Drexel University, Retired


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike Grondin
      ... The text, of course, provides no justification for this interpretation. ... the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. Therefore Jesus said TO THEM
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2004
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        --- George Melick wrote:
        > Jesus called out, "Children, have you any fish?". My
        > interpretation is that he called out to children, Mark
        > and another boy (point 3).

        The text, of course, provides no justification for this
        interpretation. "... the disciples did not know that it was Jesus.
        Therefore Jesus said TO THEM ...", the "them" in question clearly
        being the disciples. That the word 'children' is used in J's
        question doesn't in the least provide justification for ignoring
        the clear intent of the passage. He is being made to refer to the
        disciples as children - not to call out to some hypothetical minors
        on the boat. Nor is it implied that the BD recognized either the
        figure or the voice of Jesus; what's implied is that he inferred
        that the person on shore was Jesus from the large catch of fish.
        Again here (as in J's calling out to the disciples from shore),
        notice the actual confluence of thought within the text: first, the
        large catch of fish, then immediately following, BD's statement.
        The only way to interpret these passages differently is to take a
        word or sentence out of context, and then to ignore the fact that
        the interpretation of that isolated piece contradicts the context
        from which it was taken.

        That something symbolic is going on is indicated by two specific
        elements: the numbering of the fish, and the fact that J instructs
        the disciples to cast their nets off the RIGHT-hand side of the
        boat. The right-hand side of anything was considered to be the
        better side (whatever one took to be the better). Here we have
        disciples fishing for converts, and they have so far found none -
        apparently because they've been casting their nets off the left-
        hand side of the boat. What did the left-hand and right-hand sides
        of the boat represent to the author's mind? One possibility is that
        the Gentiles are on the left, the Hebrews on the right. Or maybe,
        Hellenistic Jews on the left and non-Hellenistic on the right.
        Whatever the case, I think that the huge catch of fish represented
        an unexpectedly successful conversion attempt among folks to
        the "right hand" of the disciples. To such a conversion attempt,
        the response might well be to say "This is the work of the Lord,"
        thereby "recognizing Jesus", i.e., recognizing that Jesus was at
        work advising and guiding the activities of the movement.

        Mike Grondin
        Mt. Clemens, MI
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Arlene Sheldon To: Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:47 PM Subject: Re:
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 24, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Arlene Sheldon" <wellofbethlehem@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:47 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John 21


          > Jack,
          >
          > Regarding John 21, I have discovered a few interesting points. First,
          > there are several similarities between John 21 and the book of Jonah.
          > Jonah allows himself to be cast into the sea, and Peter casts himself into
          > the sea. Jonah is swallowed by a fish, but Peter catches fish and then
          > eats some fish. The people of Ninevah don't know the difference between
          > their right hand and their left hand, so Jonah has to tell them. The
          > disciples don't know to fish on the right side of the boat, so Jesus has
          > to tell them. The King of Ninevah takes his robe off, but Peter puts his
          > clothes on. There is a discussion of whether Jonah should die, and whether
          > the people of Ninevah should live, and there is a discussion of how Peter
          > will die, and whether John should live.
          >
          > Second, there is a link between John 21 and Ezekiel 47:9,10, which says
          > an abundance of fish is caused by an abundance of water flowing into the
          > sea, and the abundance of fish in John 21 occurs when Jesus, the giver of
          > living water, is standing on the shore.
          >
          > Third, Jesus' cooking and serving breakfast seems to be linked to the
          > 23rd Psalm. When Jesus fed the multitudes, the people ate and were
          > satisfied, so they didn't "want." Jesus had them recline where there was
          > "much grass," like sheep in a pasture. He went to the other side of the
          > lake, and the people followed him, so he led them beside the still water.
          > Eventually, it's time to prepare the table of Psalm 23. Peter is alienated
          > from Jesus because he denied him. They are "enemies," who need to be
          > reconciled. Jesus prepares the breakfast and invites Peter, who is very
          > reluctant to say that he loves Jesus. These apparent allusions to the 23rd
          > Psalm seem to establish that Jesus is the good shepherd who gives his life
          > for the sheep.
          >
          > Fourth, the most interesting link, and the one that seems to tie
          > everything else together, is the link between John 21 and Acts 2. Of the
          > six disciples who remain in the boat after Peter jumps out, two of them
          > were named explicitly, two were named indirectly, as "ones of Zebedee,"
          > and two are anonymous. As Peter wraps up his sermon on the day of
          > Pentecost in Acts 2, he says "the promise" is for three groups of people
          > 1) you, 2) your children 3) all who are afar off. Note the similarity
          > between these three groups of people and the three types of people on the
          > boat in John 21 - people you address directly, children of people you
          > address directly, and people who are more distant, or unknown or
          > anonymous. The six disciples in the boat seem to be representative of the
          > people Peter will address his remarks to on the day of Pentecost.
          >
          > Lastly, there is a relationship between Jesus the good shepherd, who
          > gives his life for the sheep, and Jesus the giver of living water. This
          > relationship is found in 1 Chron 11:15-19. David's three men risk their
          > own lives to get David a drink of water from the well of bethlehem. David
          > values the water as the blood of the men who obtained it for him. Like the
          > men who obtained the water for David, Jesus sacrifices his own life to pay
          > the cost of providing the living water of the Holy Spirit to those who
          > believe and receive.
          >
          > I wouldn't be too quick to say that John 21 was added on to the Gospel of
          > John, because the Gospel of John doesn't seem to be complete without it.
          >
          > Arlene Sheldon


          Very good observations. It is my opinion, however, that Ch 21 was
          originally the ending of Mark and appended tyo John in an attempt to
          reconcile Petrine-antiPetrine hostilities between the two.

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Marcos, Texas
        • Fabbri Marco
          Jack, your suggestion that John 21 was the lost ending of Mark is intriguing. However, I would need to understand better what happened before and what happened
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 27, 2006
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            Jack,

            your suggestion that John 21 was the lost ending of Mark is intriguing.

            However, I would need to understand better what happened before and what
            happened after. What is your general picture?

            Is it something like:

            1) Mark 1-16,8 + John 21 written as one Gospel
            2) John 1-20 written as another indipendent Gospel
            3) John 21 moved from the end of Mark to the end of John, after John 20,31
            4) Mark 16,9-20 added after Mark 16,8 to replace the missing ending.

            Is this you idea? Or should anything be corrected?

            Marco V Fabbri


            On 11/24/06, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Arlene Sheldon" <wellofbethlehem@...<wellofbethlehem%40yahoo.com>
            > >
            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
            > >
            > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:47 PM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John 21
            >
            > > Jack,
            > >
            > > Regarding John 21, I have discovered a few interesting points. First,
            > > there are several similarities between John 21 and the book of Jonah.
            > > Jonah allows himself to be cast into the sea, and Peter casts himself
            > into
            > > the sea. Jonah is swallowed by a fish, but Peter catches fish and then
            > > eats some fish. The people of Ninevah don't know the difference between
            > > their right hand and their left hand, so Jonah has to tell them. The
            > > disciples don't know to fish on the right side of the boat, so Jesus has
            >
            > > to tell them. The King of Ninevah takes his robe off, but Peter puts his
            >
            > > clothes on. There is a discussion of whether Jonah should die, and
            > whether
            > > the people of Ninevah should live, and there is a discussion of how
            > Peter
            > > will die, and whether John should live.
            > >
            > > Second, there is a link between John 21 and Ezekiel 47:9,10, which says
            > > an abundance of fish is caused by an abundance of water flowing into the
            >
            > > sea, and the abundance of fish in John 21 occurs when Jesus, the giver
            > of
            > > living water, is standing on the shore.
            > >
            > > Third, Jesus' cooking and serving breakfast seems to be linked to the
            > > 23rd Psalm. When Jesus fed the multitudes, the people ate and were
            > > satisfied, so they didn't "want." Jesus had them recline where there was
            >
            > > "much grass," like sheep in a pasture. He went to the other side of the
            > > lake, and the people followed him, so he led them beside the still
            > water.
            > > Eventually, it's time to prepare the table of Psalm 23. Peter is
            > alienated
            > > from Jesus because he denied him. They are "enemies," who need to be
            > > reconciled. Jesus prepares the breakfast and invites Peter, who is very
            > > reluctant to say that he loves Jesus. These apparent allusions to the
            > 23rd
            > > Psalm seem to establish that Jesus is the good shepherd who gives his
            > life
            > > for the sheep.
            > >
            > > Fourth, the most interesting link, and the one that seems to tie
            > > everything else together, is the link between John 21 and Acts 2. Of the
            >
            > > six disciples who remain in the boat after Peter jumps out, two of them
            > > were named explicitly, two were named indirectly, as "ones of Zebedee,"
            > > and two are anonymous. As Peter wraps up his sermon on the day of
            > > Pentecost in Acts 2, he says "the promise" is for three groups of people
            >
            > > 1) you, 2) your children 3) all who are afar off. Note the similarity
            > > between these three groups of people and the three types of people on
            > the
            > > boat in John 21 - people you address directly, children of people you
            > > address directly, and people who are more distant, or unknown or
            > > anonymous. The six disciples in the boat seem to be representative of
            > the
            > > people Peter will address his remarks to on the day of Pentecost.
            > >
            > > Lastly, there is a relationship between Jesus the good shepherd, who
            > > gives his life for the sheep, and Jesus the giver of living water. This
            > > relationship is found in 1 Chron 11:15-19. David's three men risk their
            > > own lives to get David a drink of water from the well of bethlehem.
            > David
            > > values the water as the blood of the men who obtained it for him. Like
            > the
            > > men who obtained the water for David, Jesus sacrifices his own life to
            > pay
            > > the cost of providing the living water of the Holy Spirit to those who
            > > believe and receive.
            > >
            > > I wouldn't be too quick to say that John 21 was added on to the Gospel
            > of
            > > John, because the Gospel of John doesn't seem to be complete without it.
            > >
            > > Arlene Sheldon
            >
            > Very good observations. It is my opinion, however, that Ch 21 was
            > originally the ending of Mark and appended tyo John in an attempt to
            > reconcile Petrine-antiPetrine hostilities between the two.
            >
            > Jack
            >
            > Jack Kilmon
            > San Marcos, Texas
            >
            >
            >



            --
            _______________________________________
            Prof. Marco V. Fabbri
            Dipartimento di Sacra Scrittura
            Pontificia Università della Santa Croce
            Piazza S. Apollinare 49
            I-00186 Roma
            Italy

            e-mail: mv.fabbri@...
            fax: ++39-06-68164400


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