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Re: [John_Lit] John 20:31 and the BD

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  • Martin Edwards
    ... device , let ... reason for those ... No, I haven t shown it conclusively, but I think I have gone a long way towards establishing motive. Those who wish
    Message 1 of 25 , May 17 10:59 AM
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      >
      > Problem is -- is that you haven't shown that it **is** a "literary
      device", let
      > alone "only" a literary device, or that there would be any good
      reason for those
      > whose aim was to discredit the Jerusalem leadership to employ it.
      >
      >
      > Jeffrey
      > --
      >
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      >
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      > Chicago, IL 60626
      >
      > jgibson000@c...

      No, I haven't shown it conclusively, but I think I have gone a long
      way towards establishing motive. Those who wish to discredit the
      Jerusalem leadership, non-Jews, posit a betrayal by a figure symbolic
      of both "the Jews" and Jesus's family. If there was such a project it
      was successful, as the Roman Church began its drive for domination
      after the revolt and actually installed a Bishop of its own in Jerusalem.

      Mart.
    • Martin Edwards
      ... taking him as ... dependent on him ... betrayal from ... You have me nearly right but not quite. I do not think that Paul thought that there was any
      Message 2 of 25 , May 17 11:06 AM
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        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
        <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
        >
        > > I am saying that there may have been no betrayal and no Judas
        > > Iscariot. I do not argue that the interpolation was made by Paul, but
        > > by a writer dependent on him.
        >
        > But didn't you claim that Paul's use of PARADIDWMI argued against
        taking him as
        > one who thought there was a betrayal? If so, then your "writer
        dependent on him"
        > was not dependent on him -- or at least didn't get the idea of
        betrayal from
        > Paul.
        >
        You have me nearly right but not quite. I do not think that Paul
        thought that there was any betrayal, but a later writer read one into
        what he wrote. As for the invective, I shall not engage.

        Mart.
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Martin Edwards To: Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:59 PM Subject: Re:
        Message 3 of 25 , May 17 4:26 PM
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Martin Edwards" <martin.edwards5@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John 20:31 and the BD


          > >
          > > Problem is -- is that you haven't shown that it **is** a "literary
          > device", let
          > > alone "only" a literary device, or that there would be any good
          > reason for those
          > > whose aim was to discredit the Jerusalem leadership to employ it.
          > >
          > >
          > > Jeffrey
          > > --
          > >
          > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
          > >
          > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          > > Chicago, IL 60626
          > >
          > > jgibson000@c...
          >
          > No, I haven't shown it conclusively, but I think I have gone a long
          > way towards establishing motive. Those who wish to discredit the
          > Jerusalem leadership, non-Jews, posit a betrayal by a figure symbolic
          > of both "the Jews" and Jesus's family. If there was such a project it
          > was successful, as the Roman Church began its drive for domination
          > after the revolt and actually installed a Bishop of its own in Jerusalem.


          Hold on a sec. My historical nose is getting tweaked. If you are talking
          about the 1st Jewish War, there was no "Roman Church" and members of the
          Desposynoi continued to be "Bishops" (wrong word, really) of the Jerusalem
          Assembly for decades. Shymeon led the group out of Jerusalem during the
          Roman destruction. He was followed by Judas, Zaccheus, Tobias, Benjamin,
          Yohanon, Mattaya, Philip, Seneca, Judas, Levi, Ephraim, Joseph and Judas at
          which time the Bar Kochba revolt began 148ish CE.

          Jack


          -----
          ______________________________________________

          Dakma daEBadton l'chad min hoLEYN AHi zeUOreh ly haw EBadton

          Jack Kilmon
          San Marcos, Tx
          jkilmon@...

          http://www.historian.net

          sharing a meal for free.
          http://www.thehungersite.com/
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... And all of whom, according to Eusebius, were Hebrews and were circumcised and none of whom were installed by Rome . So Martin, if you have evidence to
          Message 4 of 25 , May 17 4:39 PM
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            Jack Kilmon wrote:

            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Martin Edwards" <martin.edwards5@...>
            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:59 PM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John 20:31 and the BD
            >
            > > No, I haven't shown it conclusively, but I think I have gone a long
            > > way towards establishing motive. Those who wish to discredit the
            > > Jerusalem leadership, non-Jews, posit a betrayal by a figure symbolic
            > > of both "the Jews" and Jesus's family. If there was such a project it
            > > was successful, as the Roman Church began its drive for domination
            > > after the revolt and actually installed a Bishop of its own in Jerusalem.
            >
            > Hold on a sec. My historical nose is getting tweaked. If you are talking
            > about the 1st Jewish War, there was no "Roman Church" and members of the
            > Desposynoi continued to be "Bishops" (wrong word, really) of the Jerusalem
            > Assembly for decades. Shymeon led the group out of Jerusalem during the
            > Roman destruction. He was followed by Judas, Zaccheus, Tobias, Benjamin,
            > Yohanon, Mattaya, Philip, Seneca, Judas, Levi, Ephraim, Joseph and Judas at
            > which time the Bar Kochba revolt began 148ish CE.

            And all of whom, according to Eusebius, were "Hebrews" and were circumcised and
            none of whom were installed by "Rome".

            So Martin, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.

            Jeffrey
            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... But you do concede 1. that both he and those to whom he is writing in 1 Cor. are aware that Jesus was handed over/delivered up by someone on the night
            Message 5 of 25 , May 17 5:09 PM
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              Martin Edwards wrote:

              >
              > You have me nearly right but not quite. I do not think that Paul
              > thought that there was any betrayal, but a later writer read one into
              > what he wrote. As for the invective, I shall not engage.
              >

              But you do concede

              1. that both he and those to whom he is writing in 1 Cor. are aware that Jesus
              was "handed over/delivered up" by someone on the night before he died to those
              who subsequently put him to death, and

              2. that this tradition of Jesus being "handed over" to his executioners is not
              something that Paul invented

              yes?

              And given

              1. that PARADIDWMI did not mean "arrest", and

              2. that when used, as in 1 Cor, of a person who, as a result of his handing
              over, meets his death, the verb means "betrayal",

              why do you insist that the interpretation (interpolation?) that this "handing
              over" was a betrayal is something that is only later read into Paul's text?

              Was the work of this unknown, but "Pauline dependent" person who originated the
              betrayal theme known to Matthew? To Mark?

              Jeffrey

              >
              > Mart.
              >
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              >
              >

              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...
            • Matthew Estrada
              Bob MacDonald wrote: Does the history of baptism justify the question of those sent from the Pharisees (John 1:24)? It seems to imply
              Message 6 of 25 , May 17 7:00 PM
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                Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                Does the history of baptism justify the question of those
                sent from the Pharisees (John 1:24)?

                It seems to imply that for John to be baptizing requires
                that he be one of the three: Messiah, Elijah or the prophet.

                Thanks

                Bob

                Hello Bob,

                I would encourage you to read an unpublished paper I wrote which argues for the thesis that the Baptist in John's Gospel is a personification of "the Law and the Prophets". The Baptist is placed into the role of "the Law and the Prophets", and as such, testifies in favor of seeing Jesus as the Messiah, and against "the Jews of Jerusalem who would elevate the role of the Law and the Prophets to a higher stature than where it was originally intended to stand. John the author is rewriting Pauline theology using allegory as his genre, in my opinion. You may read the paper at the link below, or by going to Joe Gagne's website on Johannine Literature.
                http://www.fourthgospel.com/unpub.htm#e






                Matthew Estrada

                113 Laurel Court

                Peachtree City, Ga 30269


                ---------------------------------
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              • Martin Edwards
                ... talking ... of the ... Jerusalem ... during the ... Benjamin, ... Judas at ... circumcised and ... After Simeon led the community out of Jerusalem, there
                Message 7 of 25 , May 18 10:29 AM
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                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                  <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Hold on a sec. My historical nose is getting tweaked. If you are
                  talking
                  > > about the 1st Jewish War, there was no "Roman Church" and members
                  of the
                  > > Desposynoi continued to be "Bishops" (wrong word, really) of the
                  Jerusalem
                  > > Assembly for decades. Shymeon led the group out of Jerusalem
                  during the
                  > > Roman destruction. He was followed by Judas, Zaccheus, Tobias,
                  Benjamin,
                  > > Yohanon, Mattaya, Philip, Seneca, Judas, Levi, Ephraim, Joseph and
                  Judas at
                  > > which time the Bar Kochba revolt began 148ish CE.
                  >
                  > And all of whom, according to Eusebius, were "Hebrews" and were
                  circumcised and
                  > none of whom were installed by "Rome".
                  >
                  > So Martin, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
                  >

                  After Simeon led the community out of Jerusalem, there was a
                  "Catholic" bishop in Jerusalem. As noted above, I just haven't got
                  time to look it up on a weekday. Perhaps "Roman" is premature, as
                  Rome had only just begun its bid for power. The Desposyni tried to
                  get their rights restored on several occasions, with little effect.

                  Mart.
                • Martin Edwards
                  ... that Jesus ... died to those ... executioners is not ... Not necessarily. I was just reluctant to broaden the debate to unmanageable dimensions. It has
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 18 10:45 AM
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                    --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                    <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Martin Edwards wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > You have me nearly right but not quite. I do not think that Paul
                    > > thought that there was any betrayal, but a later writer read one into
                    > > what he wrote. As for the invective, I shall not engage.
                    > >
                    >
                    > But you do concede
                    >
                    > 1. that both he and those to whom he is writing in 1 Cor. are aware
                    that Jesus
                    > was "handed over/delivered up" by someone on the night before he
                    died to those
                    > who subsequently put him to death, and
                    >
                    > 2. that this tradition of Jesus being "handed over" to his
                    executioners is not
                    > something that Paul invented
                    >
                    > yes?

                    Not necessarily. I was just reluctant to broaden the debate to
                    unmanageable dimensions. It has been argued (and I can give you the
                    reference) that the story grew up (not necessarily invented by Paul)
                    as a legend of origin for the Mass, which was actually absorbed from
                    the mystery religions.
                    >
                    > And given
                    >
                    > 1. that PARADIDWMI did not mean "arrest", and
                    >
                    > 2. that when used, as in 1 Cor, of a person who, as a result of
                    his handing
                    > over, meets his death, the verb means "betrayal",
                    >
                    > why do you insist that the interpretation (interpolation?) that this
                    "handing
                    > over" was a betrayal is something that is only later read into
                    Paul's text?
                    >
                    > Was the work of this unknown, but "Pauline dependent" person who
                    originated the
                    > betrayal theme known to Matthew? To Mark?
                    >
                    > Jeffrey
                    >
                    > >
                    Again this is going to go way OT and Felix is sure to stop us fairly
                    soon, but Enoch Powell argues that Matthew is a composite document
                    and, incidentally makes the point that there was not much for Judas to
                    do, without taking this line of thought any further. My unknown
                    author's work could have got into it without the author being well
                    known. As you say, much of this is speculation; but the concensus is
                    speculation piled on speculation for centuries. Christians only think
                    that it is historical fact because they have been taught it from
                    childhood.

                    Mart.
                  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                    ... So is Catholic -- at least in the sense of Roman Catholic . So while you are looking up the name of the post war bishop of Jerusalem this weekend,
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 18 10:56 AM
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                      Martin Edwards wrote:

                      > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
                      > <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hold on a sec. My historical nose is getting tweaked. If you are
                      > talking
                      > > > about the 1st Jewish War, there was no "Roman Church" and members
                      > of the
                      > > > Desposynoi continued to be "Bishops" (wrong word, really) of the
                      > Jerusalem
                      > > > Assembly for decades. Shymeon led the group out of Jerusalem
                      > during the
                      > > > Roman destruction. He was followed by Judas, Zaccheus, Tobias,
                      > Benjamin,
                      > > > Yohanon, Mattaya, Philip, Seneca, Judas, Levi, Ephraim, Joseph and
                      > Judas at
                      > > > which time the Bar Kochba revolt began 148ish CE.
                      > >
                      > > And all of whom, according to Eusebius, were "Hebrews" and were
                      > circumcised and
                      > > none of whom were installed by "Rome".
                      > >
                      > > So Martin, if you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
                      > >
                      >
                      > After Simeon led the community out of Jerusalem, there was a
                      > "Catholic" bishop in Jerusalem. As noted above, I just haven't got
                      > time to look it up on a weekday. Perhaps "Roman" is premature, as
                      > Rome had only just begun its bid for power.

                      So is "Catholic" -- at least in the sense of "Roman Catholic". So while you are
                      looking up the name of the post war "bishop" of Jerusalem this weekend, perhaps
                      you'll also look up and provide us with the evidence that grounds your claim
                      that this "bishop" was "Catholic". In the meantime, since it doesn't involve
                      looking up anything, perhaps you'd provide us with what your definition of
                      "catholic" is?

                      > The Desposyni tried to
                      > get their rights restored on several occasions, with little effect.

                      May we have the evidence for this please? As well as the evidence that any of
                      post war "bishops" who, according to Eusebius, held sway over the Jerusalem
                      church up to the Bar Kochba revolt were puppets of Rome?

                      Jeffrey
                      --

                      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                      Chicago, IL 60626

                      jgibson000@...
                    • Bob Schacht
                      ... It does not help your case to continue using anachronistic words to describe First Century history. I can t really take your speculations seriously as long
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 18 11:00 AM
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                        At 05:29 PM 5/18/2004 +0000, Martin Edwards wrote:

                        >After Simeon led the community out of Jerusalem, there was a "Catholic"
                        >bishop in Jerusalem.

                        It does not help your case to continue using anachronistic words to
                        describe First Century history. I can't really take your speculations
                        seriously as long as you continue to do that.
                        Bob

                        >As noted above, I just haven't got
                        >time to look it up on a weekday. Perhaps "Roman" is premature, as
                        >Rome had only just begun its bid for power. The Desposyni tried to
                        >get their rights restored on several occasions, with little effect.
                        >
                        >Mart.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
                        Northern Arizona University
                        Flagstaff, AZ

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bill Bullin
                        ... for the thesis that the Baptist in John s Gospel is a personification of the Law and the Prophets . John the author is rewriting Pauline theology using
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 19 2:56 AM
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                          > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                          > Does the history of baptism justify the question of those
                          > sent from the Pharisees (John 1:24)?
                          >
                          > It seems to imply that for John to be baptizing requires
                          > that he be one of the three: Messiah, Elijah or the prophet.
                          >
                          Matthew replied:
                          > I would encourage you to read an unpublished paper I wrote which argues
                          for the thesis that the Baptist in John's Gospel is a personification of
                          "the Law and the Prophets". John the author is rewriting Pauline theology
                          using allegory as his genre, in my opinion. You may read the paper at the
                          link below, or by going to Joe Gagne's website on Johannine Literature.
                          > http://www.fourthgospel.com/unpub.htm#e
                          >

                          Dear Bob and Matthew

                          Without wishing to commit the offence of cross-threading unduly, may I
                          briefly take this opportunity to say, first to Matthew that I have now
                          started to read his thesis. I will do my determined best to read it in its
                          own terms despite my prejudice that 'John' was not a follower of Paul but
                          an equally profound thinker with a priestly symbolic and Jewish mystical
                          background; a Jerusalemite and witness to some aspects of Jesus ministry,
                          including a connection with the Baptist movement, a cousin of Barnabas. I
                          suspect that he may have been a member of the Sopherim mentioned by the
                          later rabbis, not merely a counter of Hebrew words and letters but a
                          christological composer, and that there may be a connection between the
                          Sopherim and the Hebrew root seph as in 'Joseph' and 'Aseph'; a root being
                          radically re-interpreted recently, following MacLaurin's article, in terms
                          of the Akkadian and Sumerian concepts of healing and exorcism. Somehow I
                          think this approach might help sort out the conundrum that 4G seems both
                          late and early, historical reliable yet theologically symbolic, symbolic yet
                          reaching further into the mystical world of Enochian ascents and decents;
                          combining narrative and numerically repetitive discourses that seem (quite
                          paradoxically), geared for the more advanced believer rather than for less
                          advanced catechumens. As I say, I respect the position you take in relation
                          to Pauline dependence as so many scholars do, and however much we disagree
                          on such fundamental issues, I am sure I will learn a great deal from your
                          approach, esp. in relation to Moses and Joseph.

                          Second, may I make a very brief response to Bob? My poor mind has been
                          buzzing away on 'the Holy Seed' which appears to be connected with a myth
                          concerning Cain, Abel, and Seth; Noah's flood, re-birth and Baptism. My
                          response to you then is this: it is important to note that a question posed
                          by those from one of the sects of Judaism may not necessarily reflect the
                          the views held by a Christian writer with origins in another sect, say an
                          Enochian Essene Priest, though I suspect that a continuum of beliefs existed
                          accross the sects accounting for why the Jesus phenomenon drew different
                          responses to those from differing Second Temple sects. If, for a moment we
                          imagine a sociological grouping that had access to the kind of theology
                          found in Wisdom 10: 1-4 and Malachi 1:6-7, 3:1-4, 16-18, might they not
                          produce a movement somewhat akin to the movement of John the Baptist, a
                          movement with not insubstantial attestation outwith the New Testament and
                          with attestation from varying documents within it? Indeed, might we not see
                          a connection to the Johannine trinity of the spirit, the water and the
                          blood. Without wishing to drift off to readily into the complex historical,
                          Jewish Greek and doctrinal world of
                          'the soul' and its mortality and immortality, I have always considered that
                          New Testament theology, particularly Johannine theology offers a little more
                          than either Christus Victor or an atoning sacrifice offered to right the
                          balances of the eternal scales of justice held in one anthropomorphic hand
                          of the Father; it seems that we are confronted with the death of the cosmic
                          creator who was in the beginning with God, somehow the death of one creation
                          as a means, a raft, a piece of wood, a doorway into a New Creation. In terms
                          of practical or applied theology, this cosmic salvic dimension related to
                          the sacred nature of the environment, a divine poem we trash at our peril,
                          whether we are either capitalists or communists or merely idealist
                          international mutualists if we fail to recognise a continuity, in some form,
                          between the old and the new. This, anyhow is my 'odd take' on baptism and I
                          delight to be corrected by better (wiser) hearts, and souls and minds and
                          pragmatic designs than mine, within the wise restrictions of the list's
                          protocol.

                          Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex).
                        • mr_atoz@yahoo.com
                          I don t believe it was baptisms themselves that prompted such a question from his peers but rather their sheer volume. The historian Josephus recounts that
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 24 12:13 PM
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                            I don't believe it was "baptisms" themselves that prompted such a
                            question from his peers but rather their sheer volume. The historian
                            Josephus recounts that Herod Antipas was concerned that John's
                            following was such that he feared a scenario in which these people
                            would be completely obedient to John. Likewise these numbers--esp. in
                            those times--almost certainly would have led to questions about
                            John's potential political ambitions as a prophet--or messiah.
                            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
                            <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
                            > Does the history of baptism justify the question of those
                            > sent from the Pharisees (John 1:24)?
                            >
                            > It seems to imply that for John to be baptizing requires
                            > that he be one of the three: Messiah, Elijah or the prophet.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            > Bob MacDonald
                            > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                            > http://peleyah.ca
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