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Re: [John_Lit] Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences?

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  • Joe Gagne
    Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like, I am looking for some
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
      Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
      International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like,
      I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a copy to
      read and get back to me.

      David Trapero wrote:

      >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
      >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
      > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
      >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
      >
      >Thank you,
      >
      >David
      >
      >David Trapero M.Div.
      >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
      >Hickory, NC 28601
      >Dtrap303@...
      >
      >
      >
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      --
      Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
      University of South Carolina Sumter
      jogagne@...
      joegagne@...
      http://www.joegagne.com
      http://www.fourthgospel.com
    • David Trapero
      David Trapero wrote: By all means. I d be delighted to read a copy. In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
        David Trapero wrote:

        By all means. I'd be delighted to read a copy.

        In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne <joegagne@j.
        ..> wrote:
        > Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
        > International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would
        like,
        > I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a
        copy to
        > read and get back to me.
        >
        > David Trapero wrote:
        >
        > >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
        > >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
        > > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
        > >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
        > >
        > >Thank you,
        > >
        > >David
        > >
        > >David Trapero M.Div.
        > >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
        > >Hickory, NC 28601
        > >Dtrap303@a...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
        > University of South Carolina Sumter
        > jogagne@u...
        > joegagne@j...
        > http://www.joegagne.com
        > http://www.fourthgospel.com
      • Bill Bullin
        Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences? ... If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a Wisdom Gospel then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
          Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences?


          > Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
          > Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
          > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
          > recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
          >
          > Thank you,
          >
          > David
          >
          If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a 'Wisdom
          Gospel' then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may be of significance, perhaps
          related to the Spirit or else the 'Spirit of Wisdom' (cf.. Wisdom 10:13-14.
          If there is Josephian typology in all four Gospels (Bread and Wine // Baker
          and Butler, perhaps with Joseph and Jesus as suffering servant types), then
          there may be a link between Acts 7:14-16 and John 20:15. There is also the
          shared theme of 'glory' (cf. Acts 7:2), Moses; antipathy towards the
          Jerusalem Temple; emphasis on 'tabernacle' (Johannine Prologue // Acts
          7:49-50 etc.); merkavah mysticism (Acts 7:56 and John 1:51; 12:28, 41). I
          would argue that there is also a link with 1 Corinthians and that the common
          source is the Palestinian Greek Christians who provided much of the source
          material adopted and adapated by Luke. This would account for the gematria
          underlying Peter's Speech in Acts 2:14b-36 with a count of 888, two halves
          of 444, Iesous Christos (Iesous 27 x 37 + Christos 40 x 37), the split
          occuring between "..you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside
          the law /// but God raised him up." Incidentally I suppose 4G and Acts 7
          share the common charge of being anti-semitic, (from which I believe they
          should both be aquitted).

          I am afraid I know of no competent numerical analysis of Stephen's Speech
          and have yet to have a go at it myself. On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
          and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make a superb
          job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in codex form.
          I note with interest that they also mention that there would have been 28
          lines to a page (28 is a perfect number, that is the sum of its divisors,
          1+2+4+7+14,
          but also the seventh triangular number, cf. R. Bauckham, Climax of Prophecy,
          384 ff on the significance of triangle numbers of which Genesis 1:1 is the
          major example), 28 being the number of times Lamb is referred to in the
          Apocalypse cf R. Bauckham, Theology of Revelation, CUP, 66; they also argue
          that the number of letters per line would have been 21, combining the
          numbers 3 and 7 (perhaps relating to the genmatria of chokmah 37 but also 73
          and Logos 373). Morton and McLeman's findings appear to be little known
          outside Scotland, but I find them well argued and particularly interesting
          to me because they do not mention analysis by gematria at all, but are
          rather concerned with Johannine source analysis along the lines of Robert
          Fortna. They build on the work of Prof. G.H.C. Macgregor and the data
          analysis tools of Prof. Sidney Micholson. I think it is a great pity their
          book is not better known in Europe, S.E. Asia, and other centres of
          Johannine study.

          I trust these comments will be af assistance to you.

          Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex).
        • David Trapero
          ... a Wisdom ... Could you say a little about what you mean by Wisdom Gospel ? Is John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so, why?
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
            > >
            > > David
            > >
            > If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
            a 'Wisdom
            > Gospel'

            Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
            John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
            why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
            4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
            historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
            through in becoming wise?

            On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
            > and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
            a superb
            > job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
            codex form.

            I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
            and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
            neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
            was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
            books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
            assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
            internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
            practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
            did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
            consolation, it was quite well done)!

            Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
            most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!

            Kindly,

            David

            David Trapero M.Div.
            818 2nd St. PL NE #95
            Hickory, NC 28601
            Dtrap303@...
          • Joe Gagne
            You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any classes this semester. ... -- Armand J. Joe Gagne Jr. PhD. University of South Carolina
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 18, 2004
              You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any
              classes this semester.

              David Trapero wrote:

              >>>David
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
              >>
              >>
              >a 'Wisdom
              >
              >
              >>Gospel'
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
              >John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
              >why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
              >4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
              >historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
              >through in becoming wise?
              >
              > On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
              >
              >
              >>and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
              >>
              >>
              >a superb
              >
              >
              >>job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
              >>
              >>
              >codex form.
              >
              >I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
              >and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
              >neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
              >was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
              >books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
              >assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
              >internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
              >practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
              >did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
              >consolation, it was quite well done)!
              >
              >Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
              >most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!
              >
              >Kindly,
              >
              >David
              >
              >David Trapero M.Div.
              >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
              >Hickory, NC 28601
              >Dtrap303@...
              >
              >
              >
              >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
              University of South Carolina Sumter
              jogagne@...
              joegagne@...
              http://www.joegagne.com
              http://www.fourthgospel.com



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