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[John_Lit] Re: Jesus' use of Greek and urban origins

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  • Martin Edwards
    ... to Cynic ... Nazareth. ... occured if ... centers of ... This brings up another interesting point. Why is Sepphoris never mentioned in the NT when several
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 10, 2004
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      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
      <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > fmmccoy wrote:
      >
      > ><snip> It is difficult to explain how Jesus could have been exposed
      to Cynic
      > > thought if he had spent all his life in the Galilean village of
      Nazareth.
      > > On the other hand, one can readily explain how this could have
      occured if
      > > Jesus had spent part of his life in Tyre and Sidon--two major
      centers of
      > > philosophy.
      >
      > Granting your premise that Jesus **was** exposed to Cynic philosophy, it
      > is important to note not only
      >
      > (1) that your claim that "It is difficult to explain how Jesus could
      > have been exposed to Cynic thought if he had spent all his life in the
      > Galilean village of Nazareth" contains a false dichotomy in that it
      > wrongly assumes that there were no other places besides Tyre and Sidon
      > where Cynic schools of thought were established (it appears that
      > Sephoris also housed such schools, but perhaps even more importantly
      >
      > (2) that the authority you have (as it turns out, wrongly) appealed to,
      > i.e., Crossan (see his _Birth of Christianity_, 334-335 as well as his
      > HJ 421), to support your conclusion that Jesus **was** exposed to
      > Greco-Roman Cynic philosophy in Tyre and Sidon, does not believe the
      > difficulty you postulate as the primary grounds for that conclusion
      > actually exists. In fact, he explicitly states on the very page you
      > cited that, quite contrary to your claim, even had Jesus never traveled
      > beyond or outside of Nazareth, his "sight and knowledge of Cynicism"
      > would have been "... neither inexplicable not unlikely".
      >
      > So if your case is relying on Crossan as it's buttress, it's not a very
      > sturdy case.
      >
      > Yours,
      >
      >
      > Jeffrey Gibson
      > --
      >
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      >
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      > Chicago, IL 60626
      >
      > jgibson000@c...

      This brings up another interesting point. Why is Sepphoris never
      mentioned in the NT when several other cities are? If there was a
      Nazareth at the time it would have been part of the socioeconomic and,
      presumably, cultural ambit of Sepphoris.

      Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales)
      No current institution.
    • David Trapero
      Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen s speech in Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever. If anyone is aware
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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        Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
        Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
        If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
        recommend some authors who have dealt with these?

        Thank you,

        David

        David Trapero M.Div.
        818 2nd St. PL NE #95
        Hickory, NC 28601
        Dtrap303@...
      • Joe Gagne
        Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like, I am looking for some
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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          Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
          International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like,
          I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a copy to
          read and get back to me.

          David Trapero wrote:

          >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
          >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
          > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
          >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
          >
          >Thank you,
          >
          >David
          >
          >David Trapero M.Div.
          >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
          >Hickory, NC 28601
          >Dtrap303@...
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
          University of South Carolina Sumter
          jogagne@...
          joegagne@...
          http://www.joegagne.com
          http://www.fourthgospel.com
        • David Trapero
          David Trapero wrote: By all means. I d be delighted to read a copy. In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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            David Trapero wrote:

            By all means. I'd be delighted to read a copy.

            In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne <joegagne@j.
            ..> wrote:
            > Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
            > International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would
            like,
            > I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a
            copy to
            > read and get back to me.
            >
            > David Trapero wrote:
            >
            > >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
            > >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
            > > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
            > >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
            > >
            > >Thank you,
            > >
            > >David
            > >
            > >David Trapero M.Div.
            > >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
            > >Hickory, NC 28601
            > >Dtrap303@a...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > >MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
            > University of South Carolina Sumter
            > jogagne@u...
            > joegagne@j...
            > http://www.joegagne.com
            > http://www.fourthgospel.com
          • Bill Bullin
            Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences? ... If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a Wisdom Gospel then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
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              Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences?


              > Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
              > Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
              > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
              > recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
              >
              > Thank you,
              >
              > David
              >
              If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a 'Wisdom
              Gospel' then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may be of significance, perhaps
              related to the Spirit or else the 'Spirit of Wisdom' (cf.. Wisdom 10:13-14.
              If there is Josephian typology in all four Gospels (Bread and Wine // Baker
              and Butler, perhaps with Joseph and Jesus as suffering servant types), then
              there may be a link between Acts 7:14-16 and John 20:15. There is also the
              shared theme of 'glory' (cf. Acts 7:2), Moses; antipathy towards the
              Jerusalem Temple; emphasis on 'tabernacle' (Johannine Prologue // Acts
              7:49-50 etc.); merkavah mysticism (Acts 7:56 and John 1:51; 12:28, 41). I
              would argue that there is also a link with 1 Corinthians and that the common
              source is the Palestinian Greek Christians who provided much of the source
              material adopted and adapated by Luke. This would account for the gematria
              underlying Peter's Speech in Acts 2:14b-36 with a count of 888, two halves
              of 444, Iesous Christos (Iesous 27 x 37 + Christos 40 x 37), the split
              occuring between "..you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside
              the law /// but God raised him up." Incidentally I suppose 4G and Acts 7
              share the common charge of being anti-semitic, (from which I believe they
              should both be aquitted).

              I am afraid I know of no competent numerical analysis of Stephen's Speech
              and have yet to have a go at it myself. On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
              and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make a superb
              job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in codex form.
              I note with interest that they also mention that there would have been 28
              lines to a page (28 is a perfect number, that is the sum of its divisors,
              1+2+4+7+14,
              but also the seventh triangular number, cf. R. Bauckham, Climax of Prophecy,
              384 ff on the significance of triangle numbers of which Genesis 1:1 is the
              major example), 28 being the number of times Lamb is referred to in the
              Apocalypse cf R. Bauckham, Theology of Revelation, CUP, 66; they also argue
              that the number of letters per line would have been 21, combining the
              numbers 3 and 7 (perhaps relating to the genmatria of chokmah 37 but also 73
              and Logos 373). Morton and McLeman's findings appear to be little known
              outside Scotland, but I find them well argued and particularly interesting
              to me because they do not mention analysis by gematria at all, but are
              rather concerned with Johannine source analysis along the lines of Robert
              Fortna. They build on the work of Prof. G.H.C. Macgregor and the data
              analysis tools of Prof. Sidney Micholson. I think it is a great pity their
              book is not better known in Europe, S.E. Asia, and other centres of
              Johannine study.

              I trust these comments will be af assistance to you.

              Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex).
            • David Trapero
              ... a Wisdom ... Could you say a little about what you mean by Wisdom Gospel ? Is John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so, why?
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
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                > >
                > > David
                > >
                > If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
                a 'Wisdom
                > Gospel'

                Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
                John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
                why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
                4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
                historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
                through in becoming wise?

                On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
                > and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
                a superb
                > job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
                codex form.

                I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
                and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
                neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
                was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
                books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
                assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
                internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
                practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
                did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
                consolation, it was quite well done)!

                Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
                most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!

                Kindly,

                David

                David Trapero M.Div.
                818 2nd St. PL NE #95
                Hickory, NC 28601
                Dtrap303@...
              • Joe Gagne
                You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any classes this semester. ... -- Armand J. Joe Gagne Jr. PhD. University of South Carolina
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 18, 2004
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                  You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any
                  classes this semester.

                  David Trapero wrote:

                  >>>David
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
                  >>
                  >>
                  >a 'Wisdom
                  >
                  >
                  >>Gospel'
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
                  >John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
                  >why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
                  >4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
                  >historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
                  >through in becoming wise?
                  >
                  > On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
                  >
                  >
                  >>and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
                  >>
                  >>
                  >a superb
                  >
                  >
                  >>job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
                  >>
                  >>
                  >codex form.
                  >
                  >I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
                  >and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
                  >neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
                  >was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
                  >books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
                  >assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
                  >internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
                  >practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
                  >did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
                  >consolation, it was quite well done)!
                  >
                  >Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
                  >most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!
                  >
                  >Kindly,
                  >
                  >David
                  >
                  >David Trapero M.Div.
                  >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
                  >Hickory, NC 28601
                  >Dtrap303@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
                  University of South Carolina Sumter
                  jogagne@...
                  joegagne@...
                  http://www.joegagne.com
                  http://www.fourthgospel.com



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