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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Jesus' use of Greek and urban origins

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... I think the problem here is with a mindset that particular ideas can have one and only one source, so that if A looks like B, and B is known to be earlier
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 29, 2004
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      At 07:33 AM 3/29/2004 -0600, Frank McCoy wrote:


      >Still, the question remains of *why* there is evidence that the form of
      >Jesus' teaching and his activities resembled, to a certain degree, that of
      >the Cynics. The most likely explanation, IMO, is that Jesus was influenced
      >by Cynic thought.

      I think the problem here is with a mindset that particular ideas can have
      one and only one source, so that if A looks like B, and B is known to be
      earlier than A, then B "must have" influenced A. The mindset is the same,
      whether B is "Philo" or "Cynic thought". There seems often to be an
      unexamined assumption here that human beings are not really very creative,
      and must borrow all their best ideas from others.

      There is a contrary view, however, that holds that human beings, when
      presented with similar circumstances, will independently come up with a
      similar range of responses. This view of humanity tends to exult in (and
      exalt) individual creativity.

      Each of these approaches has some merits, so what we need to do, in each
      case, is to consider the evidence, and be concerned with developing
      methodologies to enable us to find out which perspective seems more
      applicable in a given situation. Concerning Jesus' influences, we can
      examine evidence that Jesus was in the right places at the right times to
      be exposed to cynic thought, and we can look for phrases which tend to
      occur only in cynic thought. We can also look for viable alternatives, such
      as that Jesus might have been exposed to cynic thought in Sepphoris or
      Tiberias. We can also examine the degree to which allegedly cynic thought
      in the words of Jesus was commonsense, or whether it represents ideas that
      would be more unique.

      We also need to consider whether it was the author(s) of the Gospel who was
      exposed to cynic thought, rather than Jesus himself, and whether the author
      supposed that his intended audience was familiar with cynic thought. For
      example, an author might choose to express, in the manner of a cynic, some
      of Jesus' sayings that originally had nothing to do with cynic thought.

      So, Frank, I don't know whether you're on to something here or not, but
      your case may need additional support to be more convincing.

      Bob

      Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
      Northern Arizona University
      Flagstaff, AZ

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Martin Edwards
      ... to Cynic ... Nazareth. ... occured if ... centers of ... This brings up another interesting point. Why is Sepphoris never mentioned in the NT when several
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 10, 2004
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        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
        <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > fmmccoy wrote:
        >
        > ><snip> It is difficult to explain how Jesus could have been exposed
        to Cynic
        > > thought if he had spent all his life in the Galilean village of
        Nazareth.
        > > On the other hand, one can readily explain how this could have
        occured if
        > > Jesus had spent part of his life in Tyre and Sidon--two major
        centers of
        > > philosophy.
        >
        > Granting your premise that Jesus **was** exposed to Cynic philosophy, it
        > is important to note not only
        >
        > (1) that your claim that "It is difficult to explain how Jesus could
        > have been exposed to Cynic thought if he had spent all his life in the
        > Galilean village of Nazareth" contains a false dichotomy in that it
        > wrongly assumes that there were no other places besides Tyre and Sidon
        > where Cynic schools of thought were established (it appears that
        > Sephoris also housed such schools, but perhaps even more importantly
        >
        > (2) that the authority you have (as it turns out, wrongly) appealed to,
        > i.e., Crossan (see his _Birth of Christianity_, 334-335 as well as his
        > HJ 421), to support your conclusion that Jesus **was** exposed to
        > Greco-Roman Cynic philosophy in Tyre and Sidon, does not believe the
        > difficulty you postulate as the primary grounds for that conclusion
        > actually exists. In fact, he explicitly states on the very page you
        > cited that, quite contrary to your claim, even had Jesus never traveled
        > beyond or outside of Nazareth, his "sight and knowledge of Cynicism"
        > would have been "... neither inexplicable not unlikely".
        >
        > So if your case is relying on Crossan as it's buttress, it's not a very
        > sturdy case.
        >
        > Yours,
        >
        >
        > Jeffrey Gibson
        > --
        >
        > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
        >
        > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        > Chicago, IL 60626
        >
        > jgibson000@c...

        This brings up another interesting point. Why is Sepphoris never
        mentioned in the NT when several other cities are? If there was a
        Nazareth at the time it would have been part of the socioeconomic and,
        presumably, cultural ambit of Sepphoris.

        Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales)
        No current institution.
      • David Trapero
        Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen s speech in Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever. If anyone is aware
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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          Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
          Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
          If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
          recommend some authors who have dealt with these?

          Thank you,

          David

          David Trapero M.Div.
          818 2nd St. PL NE #95
          Hickory, NC 28601
          Dtrap303@...
        • Joe Gagne
          Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like, I am looking for some
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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            Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
            International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would like,
            I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a copy to
            read and get back to me.

            David Trapero wrote:

            >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
            >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
            > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
            >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
            >
            >Thank you,
            >
            >David
            >
            >David Trapero M.Div.
            >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
            >Hickory, NC 28601
            >Dtrap303@...
            >
            >
            >
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
            University of South Carolina Sumter
            jogagne@...
            joegagne@...
            http://www.joegagne.com
            http://www.fourthgospel.com
          • David Trapero
            David Trapero wrote: By all means. I d be delighted to read a copy. In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 11, 2004
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              David Trapero wrote:

              By all means. I'd be delighted to read a copy.

              In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Joe Gagne <joegagne@j.
              ..> wrote:
              > Yes, David. I will be presenting a paper on this topic at the
              > International conference in the Netherlands this July. If you would
              like,
              > I am looking for some readers beforehand, and I could send you a
              copy to
              > read and get back to me.
              >
              > David Trapero wrote:
              >
              > >Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
              > >Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
              > > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
              > >recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
              > >
              > >Thank you,
              > >
              > >David
              > >
              > >David Trapero M.Div.
              > >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
              > >Hickory, NC 28601
              > >Dtrap303@a...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > >MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
              > University of South Carolina Sumter
              > jogagne@u...
              > joegagne@j...
              > http://www.joegagne.com
              > http://www.fourthgospel.com
            • Bill Bullin
              Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences? ... If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a Wisdom Gospel then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
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                Acts 7 speech and 4G convergences?


                > Is anyone on list aware of convergences between Stephen's speech in
                > Acts 7 and 4G? These could be structural, thematic, verbal, whatever.
                > If anyone is aware of such convergences, could you be so kind as to
                > recommend some authors who have dealt with these?
                >
                > Thank you,
                >
                > David
                >
                If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as a 'Wisdom
                Gospel' then Acts 6:3 taken with Acts 7:9 may be of significance, perhaps
                related to the Spirit or else the 'Spirit of Wisdom' (cf.. Wisdom 10:13-14.
                If there is Josephian typology in all four Gospels (Bread and Wine // Baker
                and Butler, perhaps with Joseph and Jesus as suffering servant types), then
                there may be a link between Acts 7:14-16 and John 20:15. There is also the
                shared theme of 'glory' (cf. Acts 7:2), Moses; antipathy towards the
                Jerusalem Temple; emphasis on 'tabernacle' (Johannine Prologue // Acts
                7:49-50 etc.); merkavah mysticism (Acts 7:56 and John 1:51; 12:28, 41). I
                would argue that there is also a link with 1 Corinthians and that the common
                source is the Palestinian Greek Christians who provided much of the source
                material adopted and adapated by Luke. This would account for the gematria
                underlying Peter's Speech in Acts 2:14b-36 with a count of 888, two halves
                of 444, Iesous Christos (Iesous 27 x 37 + Christos 40 x 37), the split
                occuring between "..you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside
                the law /// but God raised him up." Incidentally I suppose 4G and Acts 7
                share the common charge of being anti-semitic, (from which I believe they
                should both be aquitted).

                I am afraid I know of no competent numerical analysis of Stephen's Speech
                and have yet to have a go at it myself. On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
                and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make a superb
                job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in codex form.
                I note with interest that they also mention that there would have been 28
                lines to a page (28 is a perfect number, that is the sum of its divisors,
                1+2+4+7+14,
                but also the seventh triangular number, cf. R. Bauckham, Climax of Prophecy,
                384 ff on the significance of triangle numbers of which Genesis 1:1 is the
                major example), 28 being the number of times Lamb is referred to in the
                Apocalypse cf R. Bauckham, Theology of Revelation, CUP, 66; they also argue
                that the number of letters per line would have been 21, combining the
                numbers 3 and 7 (perhaps relating to the genmatria of chokmah 37 but also 73
                and Logos 373). Morton and McLeman's findings appear to be little known
                outside Scotland, but I find them well argued and particularly interesting
                to me because they do not mention analysis by gematria at all, but are
                rather concerned with Johannine source analysis along the lines of Robert
                Fortna. They build on the work of Prof. G.H.C. Macgregor and the data
                analysis tools of Prof. Sidney Micholson. I think it is a great pity their
                book is not better known in Europe, S.E. Asia, and other centres of
                Johannine study.

                I trust these comments will be af assistance to you.

                Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex).
              • David Trapero
                ... a Wisdom ... Could you say a little about what you mean by Wisdom Gospel ? Is John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so, why?
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 14, 2004
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                  > >
                  > > David
                  > >
                  > If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
                  a 'Wisdom
                  > Gospel'

                  Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
                  John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
                  why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
                  4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
                  historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
                  through in becoming wise?

                  On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
                  > and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
                  a superb
                  > job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
                  codex form.

                  I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
                  and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
                  neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
                  was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
                  books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
                  assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
                  internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
                  practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
                  did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
                  consolation, it was quite well done)!

                  Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
                  most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!

                  Kindly,

                  David

                  David Trapero M.Div.
                  818 2nd St. PL NE #95
                  Hickory, NC 28601
                  Dtrap303@...
                • Joe Gagne
                  You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any classes this semester. ... -- Armand J. Joe Gagne Jr. PhD. University of South Carolina
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 18, 2004
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                    You have an A and will be exempted so long as you do not miss any
                    classes this semester.

                    David Trapero wrote:

                    >>>David
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>If I am correct in my hypothesis that 4G is best understood as
                    >>
                    >>
                    >a 'Wisdom
                    >
                    >
                    >>Gospel'
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >Could you say a little about what you mean by 'Wisdom Gospel'? Is
                    >John a Wisdom Gospel in a way that the synoptics are not? And if so,
                    >why? What makes his so wise? Also, what relationship, if any, does
                    >4G have to the the words and deeds of (I hesitate to say 'the
                    >historical') Jesus? What process might 4G's tradition have gone
                    >through in becoming wise?
                    >
                    > On the Fourth Gospel, A. Q. Morton
                    >
                    >
                    >>and J. McLeman, The Genesis of John, St Andrew's Press,(1980), make
                    >>
                    >>
                    >a superb
                    >
                    >
                    >>job of arguing that the original (autograph) text of John was in
                    >>
                    >>
                    >codex form.
                    >
                    >I've just spent several hours trying to locate this work by Morton
                    >and McLeman but to no avail! I confess to being a search engine
                    >neophite but I think I tried everything. The first St. Andrews Press
                    >was a Printers shop in England that had nothing to do with publishing
                    >books so then I went to St. Andrews University in Scotland (where I
                    >assumed it was published)... anyway it's confirmed I'm missing the
                    >internet search engine gene along with the mechanic gene. Any
                    >practical assistance you could provide would be most appreciated. I
                    >did find something by Morton and McLeman on Philippians (as a
                    >consolation, it was quite well done)!
                    >
                    >Thank you for all these interesting leads. Bauckham is a giant. I
                    >most order his Climax of Prophecy post haste!
                    >
                    >Kindly,
                    >
                    >David
                    >
                    >David Trapero M.Div.
                    >818 2nd St. PL NE #95
                    >Hickory, NC 28601
                    >Dtrap303@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Armand J. "Joe" Gagne Jr. PhD.
                    University of South Carolina Sumter
                    jogagne@...
                    joegagne@...
                    http://www.joegagne.com
                    http://www.fourthgospel.com



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