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[John_Lit] Re: "Wine" = Holy Spirit

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  • matt_estrada
    ... literary ... Thanks for the quote. I will also use this one in my paper! Meier s has said the same thing that I have said many times to other people
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 29, 2004
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      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Grondin"
      <mwgrondin@c...> wrote:
      > --- Matthew Estrada wrote:
      > > Mike, thanks for the comments about Meier. Do you have a reference
      > > (book and page #) that you could give to me?
      >
      > Sorry, I should have provided that. Pages 934-950 of vol.2 of _A
      > Marginal Jew_. (As you may know, it's in this volume that he
      > examines the various miracle and healing stories.) The opening
      > paragraph of his concluding remarks is as follows:
      >
      > "In sum, when one adds these historical difficulties [which he's
      > just finished examining] to the massive amount of Johannine
      literary
      > and theological traits permeating the whole story, it is difficult
      > to identify any 'historical kernel' or 'core event' that might have
      > a claim to go back to the historical Jesus. Put another way: if we
      > subtract from the eleven verses of the first Cana miracle every
      > element that is likely to have come from the creative mind of John
      > or his Johannine 'school' and every element that raises historical
      > problems, the entire pericope vanishes before our eyes verse by
      > verse. Many critics would assign the origin of the story to the
      > Johannine 'school' or 'circle' lying behind the Gospel. I prefer
      > the view that the story is a creation of the Evangelist himself,
      > using a number of traditional themes." (ibid, p. 949)
      >
      > Although you won't find much support in Meier for the number and
      > variety of OT references you've amassed, you will find some support
      > for some of your interpretations of story-elements.

      Thanks for the quote. I will also use this one in my paper! Meier's
      has said the same thing that I have said many times to other people
      concerning John's Cana Miracle and my interpretation of it- namely,
      how I can show where almost every word and phrase in John has
      symbolic import, which makes it highly unlikely that it was ever
      intended to be read as representing an historical event of Jesus
      changing physical water into physical wine. Would love to have
      Meier's opinion of my thesis once it is "dressed" in the right
      language (to see what he makes of the source material I believe to
      have identified). Although I do not think that one should mainly
      depend on what others (scholars) say about a text, it does help to
      have someone of Meier's reputation to agree that it is a symbolic
      story with no "historical kernel" or "core event" behind it (except
      Jesus' death and resurrection, their ensuing consequences, and how
      these events interacted with the Johannine community). It should be
      especially helpful for those who *do* place more weight on what
      others say than what the text itself says in relation to other texts,
      although this, too, would depend on who you choose to listen to.
      Thanks, again.
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