Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "water" symbolism

Expand Messages
  • matt_estrada
    ... prophets. ... My response: I do not see the inconsistency that you see, Mike. Yes, they did have wine (God s presence/Spirit) before, but not without
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 24, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Grondin"
      <mwgrondin@c...> wrote:
      > --- Matthew Estrada wrote:
      > > Jn 2: the "water" (the Law and the Prophets) is changed into
      > > "wine" (the Holy Spirit).
      >
      > Logically, and in the context of the story, this interpretation
      > makes no sense to me. In addition, I think it's inconsistent with
      > the supposed famine motif. To say that they are now out of wine
      > implies that they had wine in the past - probably from the
      prophets.
      > To now turn around and say that the entirety of the L&P was "water"
      > contradicts and thus subverts the coherence of the story. The new
      > wine may be the best wine, but that doesn't make the old wine water.
      >
      My response:

      I do not see the inconsistency that you see, Mike. Yes, they did
      have "wine" (God's presence/Spirit) before, but not "without limit"
      (Jn 3:34, thus the abundance of "wine" = Holy Spirit), but even
      this "limited" presence has been removed from Israel during the 400
      silent years, which Amos predicts in Amos 8:11-12. Thus the "wine"
      has been snatched from them (Joel 1:5), but only to be given back to
      them at a later time (Joel 2:19, 24; 3:18). And "yes", it was
      via "the Law and the Prophets" (the water). But "the Law and the
      Prophets" is not "the wine" (God's Spirit). They are the vehicle that
      God the Father used to manifest Himself (His
      presence=limited "wine"). When the "water" (the Law and the Prophets)
      is changed into the "new wine", what we have is a change
      in "dispensations". God the Father's means of revelation has now
      passed to God the Holy Spirit's time of revelation in which God's
      presence is "poured out on all" (Joel 2:29). How? Via the Cana
      Miracle- the death and resurrection of Christ.
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.