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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Oral Tradition: correction and ending.

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  • Peter.Hofrichter
    To be not questioned once more I have inserted one word into the following text. I propose to finish now the issue of oral tradition . Many important
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 31, 2004
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      To be not questioned once more I have inserted one word into the
      following text. I propose to finish now the issue of "oral tradition".
      Many important contributions have been made. Thanks to everybody!

      Am 31.01.2004 um 10:21 schrieb Peter.Hofrichter:

      >
      > Am 30.01.2004 um 19:33 schrieb John E Staton:
      >
      >> Peter,
      >> I note you have still not answered my question as to how the
      >> evidence you cited proves the point you were making. As to whether the
      >> sources of the gospels were written or oral, I will leave others to
      >> comment.
      >> But I would appreciate an explanation of the lacuna in your argument I
      >> commented on,
      >
      > Dear John,
      > To your very point: Since the texts of Mark and John are parallel
      > Gospel texts it is my decisive prejudice that there is a literary
      > relation between the written texts. Moreover and in addition, but only
      > in second line, this prejudice is even supported by parallel structures
      > and sequences of elements and a lot of verbal similarities. I beg your
      > pardon for repeating myself, but between Mark and John there are more
      > than fifty such parallel texts, the multiplication of bread is only one
      > of them, although one of the most impressive ones.
      > One argument alone is never convincing, and there are always
      > conter-arguments. I willingly concede, if you claim that a parallel
      > sequence of elements varying mainly the vocabulary and grammar by
      > itself alone is
      > not yet a proof for paraphrasing of a written text, but may also be
      > seen as the variety of oral tradition, you are theoretically right. It
      > is not a proof, but it points at least very much to a probability. In a
      > given case it will remain a matter of realistic assessment. I think
      > that individual manners of orally or independently telling one and the
      > same event will differ significantly more than in our example.
      > Peter
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill Bullin
      ... From: John E Staton ... comment. Dear John If I may squeeze a brief comment in between the colliding plates of oral and literary New Testament
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 31, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John E Staton


        > Peter, I note you have still not answered my question ...As to whether the
        > sources of the gospels were written or oral, I will leave others to
        comment.

        Dear John

        If I may squeeze a brief comment in between the 'colliding plates' of oral
        and literary
        New Testament 'techtonics': what if some Johannine and other material,
        transmitted orally,
        was first 'sealed before delivery' with a 'security tag' so to speak.
        Perhaps the tag also served a deeply medative purpose.
        What I envisage is a written core from where material ripples out by means
        of didactical oral transmission for example
        Mark 4:13b-20 passing from Johannine to Marcan circles.

        In previous postings, that have not been taken up,
        I have refered to certain christological texts where word, letter and
        syllable counts,
        whether by coincidence or design, appear to refer to key words or ideas or
        titles (I Cor. 8:6; John 17;
        Peter's speech in Acts: 2; Mark 4: 13b-20, etc.). At least one can be dated
        to the mid-decade of the c.1st CE.

        I recognise that my suggestion may break with conventional lines of
        scholarly thinking,
        but I am trying to place a number of apparent coincidences into some kind of
        plausible historical context.

        (1) We know that some c.2nd rabbis and Samaritans placed great store by
        word, letter and syllable counts to assist exegesis.
        (2) We know that words with a similar 'count' were used to interpret each
        other, sometimes by gematria.
        (3) We know that certain numbers held a fascination, square and triangle
        numbers, prime numbers.
        (4) We know that a consecutive system of number letter counting was used in
        the Genesis Apocryphon to number sheets.
        (5) We know that certain mystical rabbis placed great emphasis on the
        mystical importance of the Hebrew letters.
        (6) We know that certain creation traditions were linked to the Hebrew
        letters and to the 'speaking of creation into being'.
        (7) We know that these traditions were somehow linked to the concept of
        'Memra' and 'Wisdom'.
        (8) We know that in some sense New Testament writers thought of themselves
        as 'writing scripture'.
        (9) We know that the Fourth Gospel demonstrates an interest in mystical
        ascents and descents.
        (10) We know that the 4G Prologue takes an interest in 'Jewish creation
        mysticism' and christology:
        'In the beginning', 'LOGOS'.
        (11) We know that 4G contains a triangle number, the number of fishes,
        whether by accident or design
        and that this has been linked to a prophecy of a stream flowing from the
        heart of the Temple to Engedi.
        (12) We know that in some circles Christians were seen as a Living Temple,
        Jesus as an ultimate High Priest and the crucifixion as an ultimate
        sacrifice.

        OK Let me try these:
        (a) LOGOS 373 by gematria: John 1:10-14, deliniated by texts many scholars
        already consider to be prose insertions: number of words 81, a square
        number (9x9), number of letters 373.
        (b) Word in Hebrew DaBaR: 26 by gematria like Y*W*
        (c) First seven words of Genesis: 73 triangle number by gematria.
        (d) Gematria of CHOKMAH 37 on a consecutive number letter count, 73 on
        conventional method.
        (e) Palindrome combination 373.
        (f) Central word of Genesis 1:1 ALEPH~TAW rather like ALPHA~OMEGA.
        (g) Gematria of IHSOUS (888 or 37x24) CHRISTOS (40x37).

        Is this Gnosticism or Stoicism or Plato. Not in my book. It is Jewish Wisdom
        mysticism
        and the Fourth Gospel is neither Gnostic, Stoic or Platonic but steeped in
        Jewish Higher Wisdom Mysticism
        as is New Testament christology and the 'Fourth' Enigmatic Wisdom Gospel'
        which, like other colleagues,
        I do not necessarily consider needs to be dated 'late' on grounds of
        christology or transmission theory.

        Best wishes,

        Bill Bullin (Private Student) East Sussex, England.
      • Peter.Hofrichter
        One last remark to Oral Tradition : Dear Bill Bullin, If you are interested in this issue of mysticism of numbers in NT, this is not at all new. Already Claus
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 2, 2004
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          One last remark to "Oral Tradition":
          Dear Bill Bullin,
          If you are interested in this issue of mysticism of numbers in NT, this
          is not at all new. Already Claus Schedl, Professor of Old Testament
          and comparative Religion at the University of Graz (Austria), who died
          already may be 20 years ago, has intensively worked on this phenomenon,
          especially on NT and Qumran texts. You will find more information under
          his name by Google. He was a extremely educated person, but, of course,
          not recognised by his collegues.
          Best wishes
          Peter Hofrichter




          Am 31.01.2004 um 13:48 schrieb Bill Bullin:

          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John E Staton
          >
          >
          >> Peter, I note you have still not answered my question ...As to
          >> whether the
          >> sources of the gospels were written or oral, I will leave others to
          > comment.
          >
          > Dear John
          >
          > If I may squeeze a brief comment in between the 'colliding plates' of
          > oral
          > and literary
          > New Testament 'techtonics': what if some Johannine and other material,
          > transmitted orally,
          > was first 'sealed before delivery' with a 'security tag' so to speak.
          > Perhaps the tag also served a deeply medative purpose.
          > What I envisage is a written core from where material ripples out by
          > means
          > of didactical oral transmission for example
          > Mark 4:13b-20 passing from Johannine to Marcan circles.
          >
          > In previous postings, that have not been taken up,
          > I have refered to certain christological texts where word, letter and
          > syllable counts,
          > whether by coincidence or design, appear to refer to key words or
          > ideas or
          > titles (I Cor. 8:6; John 17;
          > Peter's speech in Acts: 2; Mark 4: 13b-20, etc.). At least one can be
          > dated
          > to the mid-decade of the c.1st CE.
          >
          > I recognise that my suggestion may break with conventional lines of
          > scholarly thinking,
          > but I am trying to place a number of apparent coincidences into some
          > kind of
          > plausible historical context.
          >
          > (1) We know that some c.2nd rabbis and Samaritans placed great store by
          > word, letter and syllable counts to assist exegesis.
          > (2) We know that words with a similar 'count' were used to interpret
          > each
          > other, sometimes by gematria.
          > (3) We know that certain numbers held a fascination, square and
          > triangle
          > numbers, prime numbers.
          > (4) We know that a consecutive system of number letter counting was
          > used in
          > the Genesis Apocryphon to number sheets.
          > (5) We know that certain mystical rabbis placed great emphasis on the
          > mystical importance of the Hebrew letters.
          > (6) We know that certain creation traditions were linked to the Hebrew
          > letters and to the 'speaking of creation into being'.
          > (7) We know that these traditions were somehow linked to the concept of
          > 'Memra' and 'Wisdom'.
          > (8) We know that in some sense New Testament writers thought of
          > themselves
          > as 'writing scripture'.
          > (9) We know that the Fourth Gospel demonstrates an interest in mystical
          > ascents and descents.
          > (10) We know that the 4G Prologue takes an interest in 'Jewish creation
          > mysticism' and christology:
          > 'In the beginning', 'LOGOS'.
          > (11) We know that 4G contains a triangle number, the number of fishes,
          > whether by accident or design
          > and that this has been linked to a prophecy of a stream flowing from
          > the
          > heart of the Temple to Engedi.
          > (12) We know that in some circles Christians were seen as a Living
          > Temple,
          > Jesus as an ultimate High Priest and the crucifixion as an ultimate
          > sacrifice.
          >
          > OK Let me try these:
          > (a) LOGOS 373 by gematria: John 1:10-14, deliniated by texts many
          > scholars
          > already consider to be prose insertions: number of words 81, a square
          > number (9x9), number of letters 373.
          > (b) Word in Hebrew DaBaR: 26 by gematria like Y*W*
          > (c) First seven words of Genesis: 73 triangle number by gematria.
          > (d) Gematria of CHOKMAH 37 on a consecutive number letter count, 73 on
          > conventional method.
          > (e) Palindrome combination 373.
          > (f) Central word of Genesis 1:1 ALEPH~TAW rather like ALPHA~OMEGA.
          > (g) Gematria of IHSOUS (888 or 37x24) CHRISTOS (40x37).
          >
          > Is this Gnosticism or Stoicism or Plato. Not in my book. It is Jewish
          > Wisdom
          > mysticism
          > and the Fourth Gospel is neither Gnostic, Stoic or Platonic but
          > steeped in
          > Jewish Higher Wisdom Mysticism
          > as is New Testament christology and the 'Fourth' Enigmatic Wisdom
          > Gospel'
          > which, like other colleagues,
          > I do not necessarily consider needs to be dated 'late' on grounds of
          > christology or transmission theory.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Bill Bullin (Private Student) East Sussex, England.
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >
          >
        • Bill Bullin
          Dear Peter, Thank you for your valuable reference which I will follow up. It is interesting that Schell was not recognised by his colleagues; I don t suppose
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 2, 2004
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            Dear Peter,

            Thank you for your valuable reference which I will follow up.

            It is interesting that Schell was not recognised by his colleagues;
            I don't suppose he advocated the primacy of 4G as well did he?!!!

            More seriously I do think my brief notes on 1 Cor. 8:6, Mark 4: 13-20 and
            the Johannine Prologue
            have major implications for:

            (1) New Testament christology and its roots in history;
            (2) Johannine priority;
            (3) Inter communal textual communication during the production of the
            Gospels.

            If Mark 4: 13-20 could be shown to be a likely pericope from Johannine
            circles,
            it would demonstrate that the(se) Johannine circles(s) knew at least one the
            parables of Jesus
            but the Evangelist / B. D. chose not to incorporate it for some reason.

            With regard to the Prologue, the central word of the 373 words of 10-14 is,
            significantly I think, 'Name'
            rather than 'children of God' as in Alan Culpepper's analysis:
            'The Pivot of John's Prologue' NTS 27 (80/81), 1-31.
            I think NAME is extremely relevant to this christological Prologue
            and that it rings bells with the core of the Carmen Christi. Interesting too
            is the fact that the Prologue
            contains between 1117 and 1121 Greek letters whilst 373 x 3 is 1119
            whilst the gematria of the six words of the Shema amounts to 1118.

            I appreciate your response.

            Best wishes Peter.

            Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex, England).

            Post Script: Can anyone *help* me with the letter count of the Prologue:

            There are two variant readings; the first (3-4) does not affect letter
            counts, only the division of the sentence.
            The second variant (vs. 15), relates to two words but only the difference of
            1, in a letter count terms.

            It is also necessary to take into account that the text would originally
            have been written in unicals.
            There are either two or three examples of the iota subscript in my Greek
            text (vs. 1, 2, ARXH) and (vs. 5 TH).

            What are the actual letter counts for the Prologue in the major Greek
            codicies?

            Greetings.

            Bill Bullin (East Sussex, England).











            > One last remark to "Oral Tradition":
            > Dear Bill Bullin,
            > If you are interested in this issue of mysticism of numbers in NT, this
            > is not at all new. Already Claus Schedl, Professor of Old Testament
            > and comparative Religion at the University of Graz (Austria), who died
            > already may be 20 years ago, has intensively worked on this phenomenon,
            > especially on NT and Qumran texts. You will find more information under
            > his name by Google. He was a extremely educated person, but, of course,
            > not recognised by his collegues.
            > Best wishes
            > Peter Hofrichter

            > > From: John E Staton
            >
            > >> Peter, I note you have still not answered my question ...As to
            > >> whether the
            > >> sources of the gospels were written or oral, I will leave others to
            > > comment.
            > >
            > > Bill wrote: Dear John
            > >
            > > If I may squeeze a brief comment in between the 'colliding plates' of
            > > oral
            > > and literary
            > > New Testament 'techtonics': what if some Johannine and other material,
            > > transmitted orally,
            > > was first 'sealed before delivery' with a 'security tag' so to speak.
            > > Perhaps the tag also served a deeply medative purpose. etc.
          • Peter.Hofrichter
            ... No, I took part in a guest seminar Claus Schedl helt in the seventies in Salzburg about the childhood story of Luke and the hidden symbolism of the
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 5, 2004
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              Am 02.02.2004 um 15:02 schrieb Bill Bullin:

              >
              > Dear Peter,
              >
              > Thank you for your valuable reference which I will follow up.
              >
              > It is interesting that Schell was not recognised by his colleagues;
              > I don't suppose he advocated the primacy of 4G as well did he?!!!

              No, I took part in a guest seminar Claus Schedl helt in the seventies
              in Salzburg about the childhood story of Luke and the hidden symbolism
              of the numbers of words and letters etc., and I visited him once in
              Graz. He was a great scholar and a sincere and modest personality, but
              athough some observations are really amazing, I would not follow his
              trace.

              >
              > More seriously I do think my brief notes on 1 Cor. 8:6, Mark 4: 13-20
              > and
              > the Johannine Prologue
              > have major implications for:
              >
              > (1) New Testament christology and its roots in history;
              > (2) Johannine priority;
              > (3) Inter communal textual communication during the production of the
              > Gospels.
              >
              > If Mark 4: 13-20 could be shown to be a likely pericope from Johannine
              > circles,
              > it would demonstrate that the(se) Johannine circles(s) knew at least
              > one the
              > parables of Jesus
              > but the Evangelist / B. D. chose not to incorporate it for some reason.

              In my view you have to differenciate between the parable and its
              interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions
              available to Mark. The interpretation is another thing and was given by
              Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus. One of the purposes or
              probably the main purpose of the interpretation was to explicitely
              de-christologize the term and concept of the Logos like the
              "Hellenistenbuch" already did before. The sawyer is Jesus and the Logos
              is the seed he spreads or his spoken word. Matthew and Luke appearantly
              were no longer aware of this primary intention and changed the absolute
              "Logos" simply to the "logos qeou". After all, I do not hink that the
              pericope of the sawyer has something to do with johannine circles, but
              only with Mark rejceting all Logos-speculations along with he "Gospel
              of John" he had before his eyes. Both, "John" and after him Mark, by
              this same procedure exalted Jesus from the Logos (Philo and Prologue)
              to God himself. This is the line not only of "John" and Mark, but also
              of the following Gospel writers Matthw and Luke. According to all
              Gospels in Jesus has appeared God (= Yaweh) himself, and what he speaks
              is the Logos or the word of God.

              > With regard to the Prologue, the central word of the 373 words of
              > 10-14 is,
              > significantly I think, 'Name'
              > rather than 'children of God' as in Alan Culpepper's analysis:
              > 'The Pivot of John's Prologue' NTS 27 (80/81), 1-31.
              > I think NAME is extremely relevant to this christological Prologue
              > and that it rings bells with the core of the Carmen Christi.
              > Interesting too
              > is the fact that the Prologue
              > contains between 1117 and 1121 Greek letters whilst 373 x 3 is 1119
              > whilst the gematria of the six words of the Shema amounts to 1118.
              >
              > I appreciate your response.

              Unfortunately I have there no knowledge and no opinion.

              All the best!
              Peter Hofrichter
            • Maluflen@aol.com
              ... Yes, particularly in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 5, 2004
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                In a message dated 2/5/2004 12:40:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Peter.Hofrichter@... writes:

                >> In my view you have to differenciate between the parable and its interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions available to Mark.>>

                Yes, particularly in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.

                <<The interpretation is another thing and was given by Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus. One of the purposes or probably the main purpose of the interpretation was to explicitely de-christologize the term and concept of the Logos like the "Hellenistenbuch" already did before. The sower is Jesus and the Logos is the seed he spreads or his spoken word. Matthew and Luke appearantly were no longer aware of this primary intention and changed the absolute "Logos" simply to the "logos qeou". >>

                This theory seems counter-intuitive to me. Besides, your data are not accurate. Matthew never uses the expression "logos qeou" in this context. The Synoptic data in fact make more sense if John is left out of the equation.

                With respect to the parable of the sower, the process begins with Matthew, who is first to supply the interpretation of the parable and explains "the seed", in line with his own Gospel message and that proclaimed by Jesus (cf. 4:17, 23; 24:14), as the "message of the kingdom" (ho logos ths basileas, 13:19).

                Next comes Luke, who alters the vocabulary under the influence of terminology found in the Pauline letters, where the Gospel message is described as "the word of God" (1 Thess 2:13). This expression may be abbreviated to ton logon (in the acc.), as it is in Lk 8:13,15 etc., just as it is frequently in Acts, where the same Pauline (or perhaps early church / technical) terminology is used. Finally Mark comes along, and his usage reflects the latest stage of the development in the Synoptics, where ton logon (acc.) in the absolute is now known, without further qualification, to refer to the Gospel message preached and can therefore be used from the start in his (copied) explanation of the parable (4:13). Mark's usage then corresponds to the later Matthean (and Lukan) usage (Matt 13:20,21,22,23) where in Matthew the definite article is anaphoric, pointing to the fuller expression in 13:19, and so is not yet the absolute usage found in Mark. This explanation accounts for the data in a way that is straightforward and simple; we are still a long way from the further Christological development in which Christ himself is identified as the logos tou qeou.

                Leonard Maluf
                Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
                Weston, MA
              • fmmccoy
                ... From: Peter.Hofrichter To: Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 5, 2004
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Peter.Hofrichter" <Peter.Hofrichter@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:40 AM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Oral Tradition


                  > In my view you have to differenciate between the parable and its
                  > interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions
                  > available to Mark. The interpretation is another thing and was given by
                  > Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus. One of the purposes or
                  > probably the main purpose of the interpretation was to explicitely
                  > de-christologize the term and concept of the Logos like the
                  > "Hellenistenbuch" already did before. The sawyer is Jesus and the Logos
                  > is the seed he spreads or his spoken word. Matthew and Luke appearantly
                  > were no longer aware of this primary intention and changed the absolute
                  > "Logos" simply to the "logos qeou". After all, I do not hink that the
                  > pericope of the sawyer has something to do with johannine circles, but
                  > only with Mark rejceting all Logos-speculations along with he "Gospel
                  > of John" he had before his eyes. Both, "John" and after him Mark, by
                  > this same procedure exalted Jesus from the Logos (Philo and Prologue)
                  > to God himself. This is the line not only of "John" and Mark, but also
                  > of the following Gospel writers Matthw and Luke. According to all
                  > Gospels in Jesus has appeared God (= Yaweh) himself, and what he speaks
                  > is the Logos or the word of God.


                  Perhaps, though, the thought in Mark is that Jesus is the Logos of God as a
                  personified divine being and that his message is the Logos of God as speech.
                  That is to say, I question an either/or alternative as respects the nature
                  of the Logos of God in Mark.

                  Let us look at these pairs in Mark 8:36-38:
                  8:36b my sake and the gospel
                  838a me and my words (logoi)
                  8:38b The Son of Man and the angels--the holy.

                  I suggest that the right column are equivalents, so that the gospel = the
                  words (logoi) spoken by Jesus = the angels. The last part of the equation
                  is the key one--for Philo believed that the words (logoi) of God are
                  personified as angels. So, I suggest, the right hand column consists of the
                  Logos of God as broken down into individual spoken words (logoi) of God. In
                  this case, the gospel spoken by Jesus is the Logos of God as broken down
                  into the individual spoken logoi (words) of God that are personified in the
                  angels.

                  I suggest that the left column are also equivalents, so that me = me = the
                  Son of Man. Since this Son of Man is said to have God as his Father in
                  8:38, he is a Son of God. This is significant--for Philo believed that the
                  Logos of God as personified in a divine being is a Son of God.

                  So, I suggest , in Mark 8:36-38, we have three pairs in which the left pair
                  is the Logos of God as personified in a divine being, and in which the right
                  pair is the Logos of God as broken down into the individual spoken words
                  (logoi) of God that are personified in the angels. If so, then Mark's Jesus
                  is the Logos of God as personfied in a divine being and what he speaks,
                  i.e., the gospel, is the Logos of God as the individual spoken words (logoi)
                  of God that are personified in the angels.

                  In this case, there is no exaltation of Jesus from the Logos to God Himself
                  in Mark.

                  Perhaps it's questionable whether this is the case in John either. Why
                  would the Johannine community keep the Prologue in John, where Jesus is the
                  Logos of God as a personified divine being, if they later exalted him from
                  the Logos to God Himself?

                  Frank McCoy
                  1809 N. English Apt. 15
                  Maplewood, MN 55109
                • Peter.Hofrichter
                  ... Dear Colleague Leonard Maluf I know already your two Gospels Theorie. Unfortunately I cannot share it. Mark is the first among the synoptics. The
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 6, 2004
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                    Am 05.02.2004 um 21:37 schrieb Maluflen@...:

                    > In a message dated 2/5/2004 12:40:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    > Peter.Hofrichter@... writes:
                    >
                    >>> In my view you have to differenciate between the parable and its
                    >>> interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the
                    >>> traditions available to Mark.>>
                    >
                    > Yes, particularly in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke.
                    >
                    > <<The interpretation is another thing and was given by Mark himself
                    > and layed into the mouth of Jesus. One of the purposes or probably the
                    > main purpose of the interpretation was to explicitely de-christologize
                    > the term and concept of the Logos like the "Hellenistenbuch" already
                    > did before. The sower is Jesus and the Logos is the seed he spreads or
                    > his spoken word. Matthew and Luke appearantly were no longer aware of
                    > this primary intention and changed the absolute "Logos" simply to the
                    > "logos qeou". >>




                    > This theory seems counter-intuitive to me. Besides, your data are not
                    > accurate. Matthew never uses the expression "logos qeou" in this
                    > context. The Synoptic data in fact make more sense if John is left out
                    > of the equation.
                    > With respect to the parable of the sower, the process begins with
                    > Matthew, who is first to supply the interpretation of the parable and
                    > explains "the seed", in line with his own Gospel message and that
                    > proclaimed by Jesus (cf. 4:17, 23; 24:14), as the "message of the
                    > kingdom" (ho logos ths basileas, 13:19).

                    Dear Colleague Leonard Maluf
                    I know already your two Gospels Theorie. Unfortunately I cannot share
                    it. Mark is the first among the synoptics. The development of the
                    "Logos" goes differently from what should be expected according to an
                    evolution concept. But concerning the christology this means a
                    augmentation or lifting up.

                    The first step is: The Logos is Jesus, the second step is: the Logos is
                    not Jesus, but his word, the word of God, the logos sperrmatikos. God
                    himself is Jesus.
                    Originally, according the Logos-Hymn and with Philo in the background
                    the Logos is Jesus, But according to the interpretation of the
                    Hellenistenbuch or "John" and also by the interpretation of Mark the
                    Logos is the "Logos spermatikos", the word of God.

                    > Next comes Luke, who alters the vocabulary under the influence of
                    > terminology found in the Pauline letters, where the Gospel message is
                    > described as "the word of God" (1 Thess 2:13). This expression may be
                    > abbreviated to ton logon (in the acc.), as it is in Lk 8:13,15 etc.,
                    > just as it is frequently in Acts, where the same Pauline (or perhaps
                    > early church / technical) terminology is used. Finally Mark comes
                    > along, and his usage reflects the latest stage of the development in
                    > the Synoptics, where ton logon (acc.) in the absolute is now known,
                    > without further qualification, to refer to the Gospel message preached
                    > and can therefore be used from the start in his (copied) explanation
                    > of the parable (4:13). Mark's usage then corresponds to the later
                    > Matthean (and Lukan) usage (Matt 13:20,21,22,23) where in Matthew the
                    > definite article is anaphoric, pointing to the fuller expression in
                    > 13:19, and so is not yet the absolute usage found in Mark. This
                    > explanation accounts for the data in a way that is straightforward and
                    > simple; we are still a long way from the further Christological
                    > development in which Christ himself is identified as the logos tou
                    > qeou.
                    >
                    > Leonard Maluf
                    > Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
                    > Weston, MA

                    Peter Hofrichter
                  • Bill Bullin
                    ... Bill Bullin replies concerning Mark 4:10-20 and parallels: First we can argue either that: (1) Mark follows Matthew and Luke (Griesbach); John is latest.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 6, 2004
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                      Bill Bullin wrote:

                      > > If Mark 4: 13-20 could be shown to be a likely pericope from Johannine
                      > > circles,
                      > > it would demonstrate that the(se) Johannine circles(s) knew at least
                      > > one of the
                      > > parables of Jesus
                      > > but the Evangelist / B. D. chose not to incorporate it for some reason.
                      Peter replied:
                      > In my view you have to differenciate between the parable and its
                      > interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions
                      > available to Mark. The interpretation is another thing and was given by
                      > Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus. One of the purposes or
                      > probably the main purpose of the interpretation was to explicitely
                      > de-christologize the term and concept of the Logos like the
                      > "Hellenistenbuch" already did before. The sawyer is Jesus and the Logos
                      > is the seed he spreads or his spoken word. Matthew and Luke appearantly
                      > were no longer aware of this primary intention and changed the absolute
                      > "Logos" simply to the "logos qeou". After all, I do not hink that the
                      > pericope of the sawyer has something to do with johannine circles, but
                      > only with Mark rejceting all Logos-speculations along with he "Gospel
                      > of John" he had before his eyes. Both, "John" and after him Mark, by
                      > this same procedure exalted Jesus from the Logos (Philo and Prologue)
                      > to God himself. This is the line not only of "John" and Mark, but also
                      > of the following Gospel writers Matthw and Luke. According to all
                      > Gospels in Jesus has appeared God (= Yaweh) himself, and what he speaks
                      > is the Logos or the word of God.
                      >
                      Bill Bullin replies concerning Mark 4:10-20 and parallels:

                      First we can argue either that:

                      (1) Mark follows Matthew and Luke (Griesbach);
                      John is latest.

                      (2) Matthew and Luke follow Mark and possibly other sources (Streeter).
                      John is latest.

                      (3) Luke follows Matthew and Matthew follows Mark (Farrar / Goulder);
                      John is latest.

                      (4) An elaborate theory of synoptic development and inter-reaction.
                      John is last (and *first), (Boismard, *Robinsion).

                      (5) Johannine material was in circulation before Mark (as it is now known),
                      was competed.
                      This may have taken the form of both a Hellenistenbuch and or other free
                      floating oral material
                      or indeed a 'sealed' piece of oral material.

                      We can view this material in a number of ways:

                      (A) We can read it as a straightforward continuation of Jesus' teaching to
                      the disciples, when the crowds were no longer present.

                      (B) We can see it as one piece of Marcan redactional material.

                      (C) We can see it as two separate pieces of material: 11-12 & 13-20, in
                      which case they could be:

                      (a) Teaching of Jesus to his disciples (11-12) and then Marcan redactional
                      material (13-20).

                      (b) Marcan redactional material (11-12) and then a further preserved
                      pericope of Jesus' teaching (13-20).

                      (c) One piece of Marcan redactional material (11-12) followed by a second
                      piece of Marcan redactional material (13-20).

                      (d) One piece of Marcan redactional material (11-12) followed by
                      an insertion of further redactional material (13-20) from elsewhere.

                      (e) Two pieces of redactional material from elsewhere.

                      (f) One piece of continuous redactional material inserted from elsewhere.

                      I (BB), am arguing for (5) (C) (d, with perhaps as underlying wisdom
                      logion).
                      I understand you, (PH) to be arguing for (5) (B) or (C) (c).
                      I understand Leonard, (LM) to be arguing for (1) (B) (f).

                      I understand Frank (F MC) to be introducing a broader christological
                      suggestion,
                      offering an intermediate concept somewhere between logos and LOGOS; a kind
                      of 'anggelogos' rather than an 'ANGGELOGOS'.

                      I wonder what those who support an early John and follow (2) or (4) make of
                      Mark 4?
                    • Maluflen@aol.com
                      ... Because you say so? My response is: prove it . And please do not bother to repeat the standard arguments found in New Testament introductions. All five of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 6, 2004
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                        In a message dated 2/6/2004 9:15:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Peter.Hofrichter@... writes:

                        > Dear Colleague Leonard Maluf
                        > I know already your two Gospels Theorie. Unfortunately I cannot share it. Mark is the first among the synoptics.>

                        Because you say so? My response is: "prove it". And please do not bother to repeat the standard arguments found in New Testament introductions. All five of them have been frequently and decisively exposed as fallacious, or at the very least inconclusive. On the other hand, if you have some new argument in its support (other than that from authority) I, for one, would be most interested in hearing it. What impresses me is that the theory of Markan priority leaves unexplained more detailed phenomena in the Synoptic Gospels than it explains. Try, if you like, to persuade me otherwise, but perhaps you should do so on another list, such as Synoptic-L. Thus far you have only confirmed my view that old Europe is more reliable on the question of preemptive warfare than it is on the question of the order of the Synoptic Gospels.

                        << The development of the "Logos" goes differently from what should be expected according to an evolution concept. But concerning the christology this means a augmentation or lifting up....>

                        Sorry. The theory doesn't become any less counter-intuitive with repetition. I need to know something of the reason why you think Mark's (bzw. Matthew's) use of logos to refer to the teaching of Jesus was a fighting doctrine, attempting to undermine an already established identification of Jesus himself with the logos. I just see no evidence of this whatsoever.

                        Leonard Maluf
                        Blessed John XXIII National Seminary
                        Weston, MA
                      • Joseph Codsi
                        Peter Hofrichter wrote on February 5, 2004 in relation to Mark s parable of ... I find this reconstruction of the facts too hasty. In order to reach such a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 7, 2004
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                          Peter Hofrichter wrote on February 5, 2004 in relation to Mark's parable of
                          the sower:

                          > In my view you have to differentiate between the parable and its
                          > interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions
                          > available to Mark. The interpretation is another thing and was given by
                          > Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus.

                          I find this reconstruction of the facts too hasty. In order to reach such a
                          conclusion, I would expect the existence of two distinct versions of the
                          parable. The first one would narrate the parable without its explanation,
                          and the second one would be Mark's present version. In the absence of such a
                          literary evidence, Peter's conclusion requires some explanation.
                          If Mark has invented the explanation of the parable, then one is to conclude
                          that Jesus had told the parable without its explanation. I find this
                          difficult to maintain.
                          To begin with, the gospel of "Mark" openly contradicts this explanation. The
                          parabolic discourse concludes with the following remark:
                          "With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to
                          hear it; he did not speak to them except in parables, but he explained
                          everything in private to his disciples." (Mark 4:33-34)
                          I will comment on this passage in two points.
                          First point: The parables are not meant to obscure the message. On the
                          contrary, their purpose is to convey the message of Jesus concerning the
                          spiritual reality called the Kingdom of God. The parabolic discourse was a
                          way of adapting the language to the audience, so that the people would
                          understand. This is what is implied in verse 33.
                          Second point: Jesus reserved the explanation of the parable to his
                          disciples, as it is stated in verse 34 and as it is specifically said of the
                          parable of the sower in verses 10-12.
                          In both cases it is implied that the explanation goes back to Jesus himself.
                          The fact of separating the parable from its explanation does not prove, in
                          and of itself, that Mark is responsible of this separation. We must examine
                          Mark's text more carefully.

                          Mark's version does not only separate the parable from its explanation. It
                          moreover conveys the notion that Jesus reserved the explanation to his
                          disciples. It goes even to the point of changing the meaning of the word
                          "parable" from a concrete illustration of the spiritual reality to an
                          "incomprehensible charade" (cf. Mark 4:10-12). There is here a clear
                          contradiction that renders the understanding of Mark very difficult. I will
                          not go now into this difficult problem.
                          There are two ways of reading what pertains to the parables in Mark. The
                          first one is a literal reading. In this case, Jesus himself would have
                          reserved the explanation of the parable to his disciples. The second reading
                          stems from the fact that Jesus could not have done so and could not have
                          given the explanation found in verses 11-12. In this second case, the
                          problem consists in determining who is responsible of verses 11-12, the
                          disciples themselves or "Mark" or someone in between.
                          I think this question must be resolved before we could speak of any relation
                          between "Mark" and "John". This is particularly true if it can be proven
                          that Mark did not invent anything here, but transmitted faithfully and to
                          the letter what he had received, in spite of the fact that what he had
                          received did not make sense, especially in relation to verses 11-12.
                          So long,
                          Joseph.

                          Joseph Codsi
                          P.O.Box 116-2088
                          Beirut, Lebanon
                          Telephone (961) 1 242-545
                          joseph5@...
                        • Peter.Hofrichter
                          ... The same happend once more in the 4th century. After the Logos-christology was renewed be Justinus Martyr it was accepted by almost all theologians (except
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 7, 2004
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                            Am 06.02.2004 um 03:42 schrieb fmmccoy:

                            > In this case, there is no exaltation of Jesus from the Logos to God
                            > Himself
                            > in Mark.
                            >
                            > Perhaps it's questionable whether this is the case in John either. Why
                            > would the Johannine community keep the Prologue in John, where Jesus
                            > is the
                            > Logos of God as a personified divine being, if they later exalted him
                            > from
                            > the Logos to God Himself?
                            >
                            > Frank McCoy

                            The same happend once more in the 4th century. After the
                            Logos-christology was renewed be Justinus Martyr it was accepted by
                            almost all theologians (except certain modalists especially in Asia
                            Minor). But the Logos-Christology was and is incompatible with the full
                            godhead of Christ. The Logos is concieved as a being between God and
                            man, between God and his creature, mediator and word of creation.
                            Arius, who was a famous preacher in Alexandria and a consequent
                            montheist and platonist, claimed therefore that the Logos was
                            subordinate to God and that he was created by him before all other
                            creatures. Other theologians claimed that the Son wass of the same
                            divine "substance" and eternal age as the Father. Also they referred
                            the Gospel of John: Me and the Father are one, who sees Me sees the
                            Father. At last the Council of Nicea (325) decided in its creed: We
                            belive in him as "gennhqenta monogenh from the ousia of the Father,
                            light from light ... homoousios tw patri", and so on. The term Logos is
                            not to be found in this creed of Nicea and not even in it revised
                            edition of Constantinople (381), which is used till today by all
                            Curches. Also Arius and his friend Euzoius published a creed where the
                            say at the same place: "gegennhmenon Logon Qeon". They bestowed on the
                            term Logos. The controversy between Arians and Nicaenians as alredy
                            before between Subordinationists and Modalists had its last reason in
                            the contradiction between the Logos-Hymn and the Gospel reinterpreting
                            it and de-cristoloigising the Logos and exalting Jesus to Jahwe himself
                            in the oneness of God Father and Son. The most dazzeling enigma of the
                            Gospel is this "contradiction", if one believes that it was written
                            altogether by the same author. We are used to hear always again that
                            the Logos concept is the crown and peak of all Christology. This was
                            originally for ancient people definitely not at all the case. The Logos
                            is clearly less than and subordinate to the one God of Israel and also
                            less than and beneeth the transcendent God of Plato There the Logos is
                            the soul of the cosmos. In Jewish or Christian terms he is the mediator
                            of creation and revelation. And he is necessary because in Platonism
                            the absolutely transcendent God himself has no relation whatsoever with
                            the material world except through a mediator. Therfore Philo shows not
                            God, but the Logos speaking in the burnig thorn bush, on the mount
                            Sinai, and so on.

                            As to Mark: The parable of the sawer is the only one, which is given an
                            interpretation and an enigmatic question to the understanding of the
                            disciples. Why? As referring to peple with more or less faith it is
                            quite easy to be understood and does not deserve a special explanation.
                            The emphasis in its undestanding must have another reason, it mus be
                            because of the Logos terminology. The logical link between the Sawer,
                            the seed and the problem of the Logos terminology is the concept of the
                            Logos spermatikos. What the readers of the Gospel shall understand is
                            exactly that Jesus is the sawer and his spoken word is the Logos as the
                            logos spermatikos: the seed. One could object that Mark does not deal
                            elsewhere with this problem. that is true. but if his model was the
                            primitive "Gospel of John", he and his readers knew also this problem.

                            The reason of the de-christologisation of the Logos by "John" (that
                            means the later Hellenists) and by Mark may not have been only and on
                            first line the exatation of Jesus from Logos to God himself, but also
                            and even more the struggle against the beginning Gnostic spinneries
                            about the preexisting divine World.

                            Peter Hofrichter
                          • Bill Bullin
                            ... it. Mark is the first among the synoptics. ... Leonard replies: Because you say so? My response is: prove it . Bill Bullin writes: Dear Leonard In a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 7, 2004
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                              -Peter Hofrichter rights to Leonard:
                              > > I know already your two Gospels Theorie. Unfortunately I cannot share
                              it. Mark is the first among the synoptics.>
                              >
                              Leonard replies: Because you say so? My response is: "prove it".

                              Bill Bullin writes:

                              Dear Leonard

                              In a recent posting to Peter Hofrichter, I set out a scheme of the
                              theoretical possibilities that are most likely to be argued in relation to
                              the origin of
                              Mark 4: 13-20 (//'s Matt. 13:8-23 & Luke 8:11-13). The nature of such a
                              scheme risks being irritating rather than helpful. At the foot I made a note
                              of my understanding of your contribution. I inadvertently designated it: (1)
                              (B) (f) which of course is entirely in error. If I understand you correctly,
                              it should simply read (1) (B). I apologise.

                              Such a position as (1) (B) wields Occam's Razor with great effect; there is
                              no need to involve 4G; Mark is late, indeed late enough to reflect the kind
                              of evolved LOGOS Christology the majority of scholars argue for, together
                              with a post 85CE separation of Church and Synagogue type social situation
                              often linked with the 'benediction of the minim'; (J. L. Martyn (1979); D.
                              Rensberger, (1988) et al.). 4G is, presumably then written in the 90's - 120
                              's CE. This makes a great deal of sense to me but do I detect the faint
                              traces of blood on the wall? What if Occam's razor, is being wielded in the
                              bathroom where a baby has been bathing? What if the baby gets cut and then
                              baby, together with the bathwater, drains away leaving precious little
                              evidence of a more complex series of events? My metaphores are almost as
                              confusingly mixed as in Mark 4: 13-20.

                              For me, a first edition of John, written in the 60's in a Palestinian
                              setting, is a serious possibility. The Temple still stands (John 5:2),
                              tensions between the synagogue and the churches grow with a worsening
                              socio-political climate, they have never been great. Although a post war
                              'benediction' has not been formulated the ma-minim or believers are growing
                              in strength and tensions between the Christian Pharisees and the Synagogue
                              are growing. The parable of the sower is well known, not only to the Petrine
                              Party but also to the economically more independent and communal Johannine
                              Hellenists / Enochian Essene / Samaritans with their 373 ANGGELGOS
                              Christology.

                              A Johannine 'sealed pericope' is formulated orally and somehow passed
                              between the communities; it is a reflection on the parable of the sower,
                              well known to all the believers in Palestine. It warns against conforming
                              either for economic gain or to avoid persecution. It is constructed using
                              the word LOGOS eight times reflecting the gematria of IESOUS 888.
                              Furthermore it uses no more and no less than 146 words, two lots of 73, the
                              gematria of CHOKMAH or Wisdom, reinforcing the message that Jesus in the
                              flesh was none other than Wisdom incarnate, the DaBaR or LOGOS who had been
                              from the beginning. But more, the 146 words are constructed from 730 Greek
                              letters to emphasise the key meditative point yet again!

                              Both communities had been reflecting on their current social situation, the
                              evangel is falling on hard ground, indeed the war clouds are gathering
                              between Rome and the Jews. The Christians are reminded of words of Jesus and
                              of the great prophet Isaiah. Indeed the Beloved disciple had only recently
                              been reflecting prayerfully on the divine shekinah glory and writing about
                              it, (John 12:38-43, Isaiah 6:11-13). Perhaps they would need to flee to
                              Alexandria. Certainly some of the Jewish-Christians were considering fleeing
                              to Pella.

                              Alternatively of course, 'Mark' - writing in a post-war situation, could
                              simply have expanded on the 128 words of Matthew 13:18-23, noticing at the
                              same time that these were composed of 4 to the power of 3 words: (4x4x4=64 +
                              64=4x4x4), a cubic number like the very Holy of Holies both on earth and in
                              heaven. Much depends on the Q or non-Q debate, which, in its broadest terms
                              is clearly something for another list, but in the specific limits of
                              analysing Mark 4 in the light of proposed early Johannine material, must
                              surely remain relevant.

                              It is clearly unlikely that either Matthew or Mark would have followed Luke
                              8:11-15 with his meagre109 words, unless of course the kind of evolutionary
                              model of Christology is applied to synoptic development theory too; but here
                              I must certainly resist the temptation to digress onto John 17 and the two
                              accounts of the Lord's Prayer found in Matthew and Luke.

                              With best wishes from Old Europe.
                              >
                              Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex).
                              >
                            • LeeEdgarTyler@aol.com
                              In a message dated 2/8/2004 1:16:51 PM Central Standard Time, joseph5@inco.com.lb writes: Peter Hofrichter wrote on February 5, 2004 in relation to Mark s
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 8, 2004
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                                In a message dated 2/8/2004 1:16:51 PM Central Standard Time,
                                joseph5@... writes:

                                Peter Hofrichter wrote on February 5, 2004 in relation to Mark's parable of
                                the sower:

                                > In my view you have to differentiate between the parable and its
                                > interpretation. The parable is one thing. It belonged to the traditions
                                > available to Mark. The interpretation is another thing and was given by
                                > Mark himself and layed into the mouth of Jesus.

                                I find this reconstruction of the facts too hasty. In order to reach such a
                                conclusion, I would expect the existence of two distinct versions of the
                                parable. The first one would narrate the parable without its explanation,
                                and the second one would be Mark's present version. In the absence of such a
                                literary evidence, Peter's conclusion requires some explanation.
                                If Mark has invented the explanation of the parable, then one is to conclude
                                that Jesus had told the parable without its explanation. I find this
                                difficult to maintain
                                I wonder why you find this dificult, Joseph? Traditional wisdom forms like
                                the parable and the proverb are typically delivered without explication. It
                                is only once the thing leaves its milieu, often when it is committed to
                                written form, that you start finding explications attached to them.
                                Ed Tyler

                                http://hometown.aol.com/leeedgartyler/myhomepage/index.html


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Peter.Hofrichter
                                Am 06.02.2004 um 15:29 schrieb Bill Bullin: I always wonder how abstract especially NT-scholats are used to think and argue, far away from real life. Our
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 9, 2004
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                                  Am 06.02.2004 um 15:29 schrieb Bill Bullin:

                                  I always wonder how abstract especially NT-scholats are used to think
                                  and argue, far away from real life. Our evangelists were not
                                  sophisticated puzzle producers or people with too much leisur time or
                                  well payed professors motivated by the principle publish or perish.
                                  Writing and publishing a new book was a big and expensive task. If they
                                  did so they must have experienced an urgent need and necessity,
                                  especially if similar books already existed. They must have had a
                                  strong motivation to improve or to change or to replace something they
                                  were absolutely not content with or did absolutely not agree with to be
                                  used in the church. We can be sure that in the young Jesus movement
                                  everybody of the leading people knew everybody, but that there were
                                  quite different opinions, strives and enimities like it is usual
                                  especially in young movements (and even in old ones - think of your
                                  parish, convent or whatsoever). Forget the romantic idea of isolated
                                  communities with their isolated oral traditions and emerging new tales
                                  ("Gemeindebildungen") kept hidden from everybody else for decades.
                                  Where should that have been? Somewhere in the desert or on mount Hermon
                                  or where? The Jesus people were mainly inhabitants of the big cities
                                  with quick communication: Jerusalem, Damascus, Antioch, Caesarea,
                                  Ephesus. All Gospels were produced by highly educated people, most
                                  probably in Antioch. No author will have written without having before
                                  his eyes all similar scriptures already existing. Think of what Luke
                                  says in his Prologue, who might have been the last one to write. All
                                  these famous theories mentioned below (Griesbach, Streeter, Boismatd,
                                  etc.) lack of one important thing: the vital necessity and motivation
                                  for each Gospel writer to do what he did.

                                  The synoptic question as such belongs to another dicussion group. But
                                  why should Mark make an abstract of Matthew and Luke? What is his vital
                                  purpose and what is the decisive improvement? People normally want to
                                  read more, not less! Abtracts were highly appreciated in antiquity
                                  (e.g. Xyphilinus), but only of really lengthy works of about 100
                                  volumes, which to buy or to read nobody had enough money and time. But
                                  not in the case of one small booklet. What is much more likely and
                                  usual is an enlarged edition with an special emphasis, like Matthew
                                  made of Mark, also he a propagator of Peter stressing his claims by
                                  additional arguments (as to the Jewish law or Mt 16,18). Additional
                                  material was a condition of success and will have granted readers.
                                  There are plenty of other examples of enlarged editions in secular
                                  ancient literature, especially in historiography. About the priority of
                                  a written early edition of "John" (Hellenistenbuch) as the partial
                                  source and pattern of Mark and to a certain extent also once more of
                                  his followers Mt and Lk I wrote already enough in this discussion
                                  group. Luke as disciple and propagator of Paul could not be happy with
                                  all three predecessors – none of them could be useed in the Pauline
                                  Church – and wrote the last – and concerning the literary quality –
                                  also the best Gospel. And there is some evidence that he used besides
                                  "John", Mark, and Matthew also Matthew’s additional written source Q.
                                  Then Luke had at least four earlier writings before his eyes, and his
                                  statement that "many before him" have already written seems somehow
                                  sincere and serious. Two or three would scarcely justify to speak of
                                  "many". By the time several strong reactions on Mark and again on
                                  Matthew were inserted into "John": Most Hellenists did not accept the
                                  leadership of Peter and his party fovoured there, but others
                                  appearently did. Additional texts of both factions were added to the
                                  text existing, probably at first in different editions, but finally
                                  united into only one and the same (e.g. the two different endings:
                                  Thomas-story and chapter 21, and chapter 21once more augmented).

                                  A last question: What is your "redactional material"? What kind of
                                  substance is that? Something copied, something written from own memory
                                  or from having heared from others or something concieved and produced
                                  by oneself? Such abstract learned terms – as there are:
                                  Gemeindebildung, Traditionsmaterial, redaktionelle Bildung, your
                                  floating oral material etc. – conceal the helplessness and ingnorance
                                  behind them and not only serve for nothing but poisen and block every
                                  honest language in research. Say exactly what you mean and imagine it
                                  in real live.

                                  All the best for the future
                                  Peter Hofrichter





                                  > Bill Bullin replies concerning Mark 4:10-20 and parallels:
                                  >
                                  > First we can argue either that:
                                  >
                                  > (1) Mark follows Matthew and Luke (Griesbach);
                                  > John is latest.
                                  >
                                  > (2) Matthew and Luke follow Mark and possibly other sources (Streeter).
                                  > John is latest.
                                  >
                                  > (3) Luke follows Matthew and Matthew follows Mark (Farrar / Goulder);
                                  > John is latest.
                                  >
                                  > (4) An elaborate theory of synoptic development and inter-reaction.
                                  > John is last (and *first), (Boismard, *Robinsion).
                                  >
                                  > (5) Johannine material was in circulation before Mark (as it is now
                                  > known),
                                  > was competed.
                                  > This may have taken the form of both a Hellenistenbuch and or other
                                  > free
                                  > floating oral material
                                  > or indeed a 'sealed' piece of oral material.
                                  >
                                  > We can view this material in a number of ways:
                                  >
                                  > (A) We can read it as a straightforward continuation of Jesus'
                                  > teaching to
                                  > the disciples, when the crowds were no longer present.
                                  >
                                  > (B) We can see it as one piece of Marcan redactional material.
                                  >
                                  > (C) We can see it as two separate pieces of material: 11-12 & 13-20, in
                                  > which case they could be:
                                  >
                                  > (a) Teaching of Jesus to his disciples (11-12) and then Marcan
                                  > redactional
                                  > material (13-20).
                                  >
                                  > (b) Marcan redactional material (11-12) and then a further preserved
                                  > pericope of Jesus' teaching (13-20).
                                  >
                                  > (c) One piece of Marcan redactional material (11-12) followed by a
                                  > second
                                  > piece of Marcan redactional material (13-20).
                                  >
                                  > (d) One piece of Marcan redactional material (11-12) followed by
                                  > an insertion of further redactional material (13-20) from elsewhere.
                                  >
                                  > (e) Two pieces of redactional material from elsewhere.
                                  >
                                  > (f) One piece of continuous redactional material inserted from
                                  > elsewhere.
                                  >
                                  > I (BB), am arguing for (5) (C) (d, with perhaps as underlying wisdom
                                  > logion).
                                  > I understand you, (PH) to be arguing for (5) (B) or (C) (c).
                                  > I understand Leonard, (LM) to be arguing for (1) (B) (f).
                                  >
                                  > I understand Frank (F MC) to be introducing a broader christological
                                  > suggestion,
                                  > offering an intermediate concept somewhere between logos and LOGOS; a
                                  > kind
                                  > of 'anggelogos' rather than an 'ANGGELOGOS'.
                                  >
                                  > I wonder what those who support an early John and follow (2) or (4)
                                  > make of
                                  > Mark 4?
                                • fmmccoy
                                  ... From: Peter.Hofrichter To: Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:05 AM Subject: Re:
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 9, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Peter.Hofrichter" <Peter.Hofrichter@...>
                                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:05 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Jesus Logos or God Himself


                                    >
                                    > Am 06.02.2004 um 03:42 schrieb fmmccoy:
                                    >
                                    > > In this case, there is no exaltation of Jesus from the Logos to God
                                    > > Himself
                                    > > in Mark.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps it's questionable whether this is the case in John either. Why
                                    > > would the Johannine community keep the Prologue in John, where Jesus
                                    > > is the
                                    > > Logos of God as a personified divine being, if they later exalted him
                                    > > from
                                    > > the Logos to God Himself?
                                    > >

                                    > The same happend once more in the 4th century. After the
                                    > Logos-christology was renewed be Justinus Martyr it was accepted by
                                    > almost all theologians (except certain modalists especially in Asia
                                    > Minor). But the Logos-Christology was and is incompatible with the full
                                    > godhead of Christ. The Logos is concieved as a being between God and
                                    > man, between God and his creature, mediator and word of creation.
                                    > Arius, who was a famous preacher in Alexandria and a consequent
                                    > montheist and platonist, claimed therefore that the Logos was
                                    > subordinate to God and that he was created by him before all other
                                    > creatures.

                                    That a Christological progression from Jesus as the Logos to Jesus as God
                                    occurred in mainstream Christianity in the 4th century doesn't necessarily
                                    mean that a similar Christological progression occurred in the Johannine
                                    community in the 1st century.

                                    In any event, the position of Arius appears to have been more sophisticated
                                    than indicated above, with him distinguishing between the Logos who is the
                                    Son (with this Logos being the Logos described above) and the true Logos of
                                    God.

                                    In Early Arianism-a View of Salvation (Fortress Press), Robert C. Gregg and
                                    Dennis E. Groh state (p. 103), "As the structures of reality are differently
                                    drawn by the early Arians, they argue that God's 'true' Reason and
                                    Wisdom--that is, the Logos and Sophia which belong to his nature alone--are
                                    his intrinsic attributes. Contrary to the charges leveled at them, the
                                    Arians did not teach that God was ever without *his own* Word and Wisdom.
                                    Athanasius knows this, for he preserved their doctrine of the one Wisdom
                                    which is God's own and exists in him (ten idian kai synyparchousan tw thew),
                                    distinguishable from the Son, and their parallel doctrine of the Word, other
                                    than the Son, which is in God. The accusation contained in Alexander's
                                    enclyclical is correct: the Arians say that the Son 'is neither similar to
                                    the father in essence, nor is he truly and by nature (alethinos kai physei)
                                    the Word of God, nor is he true (alethine) Wisdom...".

                                    >Other theologians claimed that the Son wass of the same
                                    > divine "substance" and eternal age as the Father. Also they referred
                                    > the Gospel of John: Me and the Father are one, who sees Me sees the
                                    > Father.

                                    Certainly, these phrases, in John, of, "Me and the Father are one", and "Who
                                    sees Me sees the Father", can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is God.

                                    However, they are also intepretable in terms of a Logos Christology

                                    See, for example, Fuga (101), where, regarding the Logos, Philo states,
                                    "Nay, He is Himself the Image of God, chiefest of all Beings intellectually
                                    perceived, placed nearest, with no intervening distance, to the Alone truly
                                    existent One. For we read, 'I will talk with thee from above the
                                    Mercy-seat, between the two Cherubim' (Ex. xxv. 21), words which shew that
                                    while the Logos is the charioteer of the Powers, He Who talks is seated in
                                    the chariot, giving directions to the charioteer for the right wielding of
                                    the reins of the Universe."

                                    Here, we see, the Logos is one with God, his Father, in two senses. First,
                                    there is "no intervening distance" between the Logos and God, so that, in
                                    some significant sense, they are a single entity. Second, the Logos is one
                                    in will with God, obediently obeying whatever God tells him to do.

                                    Here, we also see, the Logos is the Image of God, so that, in some
                                    significant sense, to see the Logos is to see God.

                                    (snip)

                                    > We are used to hear always again that
                                    > the Logos concept is the crown and peak of all Christology. This was
                                    > originally for ancient people definitely not at all the case.

                                    Agreed.

                                    >The Logos
                                    > is clearly less than and subordinate to the one God of Israel and also
                                    > less than and beneeth the transcendent God of Plato There the Logos is
                                    > the soul of the cosmos. In Jewish or Christian terms he is the mediator
                                    > of creation and revelation. And he is necessary because in Platonism
                                    > the absolutely transcendent God himself has no relation whatsoever with
                                    > the material world except through a mediator. Therfore Philo shows not
                                    > God, but the Logos speaking in the burnig thorn bush, on the mount
                                    > Sinai, and so on.

                                    While Philo's Logos is not Plato's soul of the cosmos, it is important to
                                    note that Philo's Logos does play the same role. In Philo (Vol. 1, Harvard
                                    University Press, pp. 327-28), Harry Austryn Wolfson states, "While the
                                    residence of the Logos in the corporeal world is conceived by him (i.e.,
                                    Philo), as we have said, after the analogy of the residence of Plato's
                                    preexistent mind or soul in the body of the world, still Philo never
                                    describes the immanent Logos as the mind or the soul of the world. His
                                    immanent Logos, while performing the same functions as Plato's or the
                                    Stoics' world-soul, is not a world-soul."

                                    Also, since Philo's Logos is the One through whom the Cosmos is created,
                                    Philo's Logos, even though not Plato's Demiurge, does play the same role as
                                    Plato's Demiurge.

                                    How does one explain why Philo's Logos plays the role of both Plato's
                                    Demiurge and world-soul, yet is neither?

                                    What I suspect is that Philo was influenced by the Middle Platonist, Eudorus
                                    of Alexandria.

                                    As respects the teachings of Eudorus, Jerry Dell Ehrlich states in Plato's
                                    Gift to Christianity (Academic Christian Press, p. 104) that "the ultimate
                                    transcendent God is even further exalted, which was in keeping with the
                                    general trend within Middle-Platonism that the First Principle of all was
                                    utterly transcendent, and the Creator of the World, the Demiurge, was a
                                    Second Principle of creation, and the final principle, the third element of
                                    deity, was the World-Soul or World-Spirit. While this is an interpretation
                                    of Plato's own thoughts, it can be understood as an attempt at systematizing
                                    Plato's Absolute One in the Republic with the Father and Maker of the
                                    Universe in the Timaeus and the Living Creature (Cosmos) or World-Soul in
                                    the Timaeus. While this view had tremendous influence on Philo of
                                    Alexandria and the forming of the doctrine of the Christian Trinity, it
                                    seems more likely that Plato himself would not have made a distinction
                                    between the God beyond being and the Demiurge, the Father and Maker of the
                                    Cosmos."

                                    The important point here is that Eudorus did not equate the transcendent God
                                    with the Demiurge, so that there are, in his thought, three divine beings,
                                    i.e., the transcendent God, the Demiurge, and the World-soul.

                                    In Philonic thought, the Logos apparently combines the roles of both
                                    Eudorus' Demiurge and World-Soul. The Cosmos was created through the Logos
                                    (so that he plays the same role as the Demiurge) and the Cosmos is ruled
                                    through the Logos, who suffuses himself through the Cosmos, bonding and
                                    knitting together all its parts (so that he plays the role of the
                                    World-Soul).

                                    Relevant to the discussion is Exodus (Book II, Sect. 68), where Philo
                                    states, "And from the divine Logos, as from a spring, there divide and break
                                    forth two powers. One is the creative (power), though which the Artificer
                                    placed and ordered all things; this is named 'God.' And (the other is) the
                                    royal (power), since through it the Creator rules over created things; this
                                    is called 'Lord.'"

                                    I suggest that, here, we have a clue as to how the roles of Eudorus'
                                    Demiurge and the World-soul came to be assigned to Philo's Logos.

                                    In particular, there appears to have been an intermediate step in which the
                                    role of Eudorus' Demiurge was assigned to an angelic power called the
                                    Creative Power and given the title of God and in which the role of Eudorus'
                                    World-soul was assigned to an angelic power called the Royal Power and given
                                    the title of Lord. This step was presumably taken by an Alexandrian Jew,
                                    possibly, but not necessarily, Philo.

                                    In the final step, these two angelic powers were taken to be a part of the
                                    very self of the Logos. As a result, they emanate from the Logos like two
                                    streams from a fountain. As these two angelic powers are of the very self
                                    of the Logos, their roles are also the roles of the Logos. This last step,
                                    presumably, was taken by Philo.

                                    This explains why Philo gives the Logos the titles of God and Lord. The
                                    Logos is God because he has the role of "God" (i.e., the Creative Power) and
                                    he is Lord because he has the role of "Lord" (i.e., the Royal Power).

                                    In this case, the exclamation of Thomas, "My Lord and my God!", can be
                                    interpreted to be a recognition, on the part of Thomas, that Jesus is the
                                    Logos: who combines, in one divine being, the Royal and Creative powers.

                                    To conclude, it certainly is the case that, in John, there are some
                                    statements which can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, e.g., Jesus'
                                    declarations that he and the Father are one and that to see him is to see
                                    the Father and Thomas' confession that Jesus is both Lord and God. However,
                                    these same statements are also interpretable in terms of a Logos
                                    Christology. In this case, there is a consistent Logos Christology in both
                                    the Prologue and the main body of John.

                                    Frank McCoy
                                    1809 N. English Apt. 15
                                    Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                                  • Peter.Hofrichter
                                    Dear Frank, I thank you very for this really learned dissertation. I want to add only some remarks. The task of the Church has always been and is also today
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Feb 10, 2004
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                                      Dear Frank,
                                      I thank you very for this really learned dissertation. I want to add
                                      only some remarks. The task of the Church has always been and is also
                                      today harmonizing breaks, bridging gaps, saving peace among the sheep
                                      and painting pictures of heavenly unanimity. Therefore The Gopel of
                                      John has been at least for 1800 to 1900 years read in a harmonizing
                                      way. And this was necessary as soon as it was ascribed as a whole to
                                      one and the same holy author (what may have happended already against
                                      the end of the first century). The last open conflicts are visible with
                                      Tertullian’s Adversus Praxeam and Hippolyt’s Philosophoumena, where he
                                      argues against Pope Callistus and especially against Noetus to believe
                                      in a "sonfather", may be, also with the obscure Alogoi. But the task of
                                      critcal historical research is contrary to that of the pastoral efforts
                                      of the Church to uncover especially the gaps and the hidden
                                      contradictions, the conflicts behind the facade and what really had
                                      happend, (Neverftheless I understand myself as a a believer and an
                                      ecclesial thologiian.)

                                      The danger of the first century was of course not Arianism but
                                      Gnosticism with its growing cascades of emanations, the starting point
                                      of which had been the Logos christology and the other terms of the
                                      Logos-hymn (arche, life, light, man, monogenes etc.). At the other hand
                                      the solution of the fourth century as to the Logos was finally reached
                                      on the background of the gnostic idea of the divine pleroma, within
                                      which all divine entities were thought as homoousioi. Within this
                                      concept also the unknown God himself and the Logos-Mediator can be
                                      concieved as homoousioi. But concerning the origin and purpose of our
                                      hellenistic Gospel "of John" we should think still quite simply. There
                                      is an obvious gap between the Logos-hymn and the following text. And my
                                      conviction is that the purpose of this book was to give a narrative
                                      antignostic commentary to this confession-like hymn quoted at the
                                      biginning and already firmly established in the hellenistic church
                                      (grown out of the synagogue of the Alexandrinians etc. in Jerusalem).

                                      You mention the Thomas confession to be also interpretable in harmony
                                      with the Logos christology. Of course, everything is possible but not
                                      verisimilar: Thomas says. "Ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou!" If you
                                      compare this with Joh 1,1, you realize that "ho theos" with article is
                                      there exactly not the Logos but God himself. In addition we have in
                                      the Gospel also the "I am" sayings (Ego eimi) at the capture of Jesus,
                                      which remind us of the Name of Yahwe in Gen 3,13: "I am who I am". The
                                      Thomas Confession is certainly the summary and the peak of the
                                      christological teaching of this Gospel. In some respect it is the
                                      conterpart to the confession of Peter in Mark (and in my view a later
                                      added reaction to it).

                                      Once more, the prupose of the Gospel was to give the hymnic confession
                                      of faith of the Helleniists quoted at is beginning a new meaning: Its
                                      text should not be underrstood as speking of prexistence and world
                                      creation etc. but from it first line of the historical Jesus and his
                                      revelation. God ("Ho theos") should be understood as Jesus himself and
                                      the Logos as the spoken word of his revelation. This was the intention
                                      of this book. And during the first and fist half of the second century
                                      this strategy seems to have beeen successful and has been adopted also
                                      by the other NT writers.

                                      With complemtes
                                      Peter Hofrichter

                                      PS: Because of a journey I shall not be able to continue the dicussion.
                                      Thanks to everybody and good buy!





                                      Am 09.02.2004 um 18:49 schrieb fmmccoy:

                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "Peter.Hofrichter" <Peter.Hofrichter@...>
                                      > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:05 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Jesus Logos or God Himself
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >> Am 06.02.2004 um 03:42 schrieb fmmccoy:
                                      >>
                                      >>> In this case, there is no exaltation of Jesus from the Logos to God
                                      >>> Himself
                                      >>> in Mark.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Perhaps it's questionable whether this is the case in John either.
                                      >>> Why
                                      >>> would the Johannine community keep the Prologue in John, where Jesus
                                      >>> is the
                                      >>> Logos of God as a personified divine being, if they later exalted him
                                      >>> from
                                      >>> the Logos to God Himself?
                                      >>>
                                      >
                                      >> The same happend once more in the 4th century. After the
                                      >> Logos-christology was renewed be Justinus Martyr it was accepted by
                                      >> almost all theologians (except certain modalists especially in Asia
                                      >> Minor). But the Logos-Christology was and is incompatible with the
                                      >> full
                                      >> godhead of Christ. The Logos is concieved as a being between God and
                                      >> man, between God and his creature, mediator and word of creation.
                                      >> Arius, who was a famous preacher in Alexandria and a consequent
                                      >> montheist and platonist, claimed therefore that the Logos was
                                      >> subordinate to God and that he was created by him before all other
                                      >> creatures.
                                      >
                                      > That a Christological progression from Jesus as the Logos to Jesus as
                                      > God
                                      > occurred in mainstream Christianity in the 4th century doesn't
                                      > necessarily
                                      > mean that a similar Christological progression occurred in the
                                      > Johannine
                                      > community in the 1st century.
                                      >
                                      > In any event, the position of Arius appears to have been more
                                      > sophisticated
                                      > than indicated above, with him distinguishing between the Logos who is
                                      > the
                                      > Son (with this Logos being the Logos described above) and the true
                                      > Logos of
                                      > God.
                                      >
                                      > In Early Arianism-a View of Salvation (Fortress Press), Robert C.
                                      > Gregg and
                                      > Dennis E. Groh state (p. 103), "As the structures of reality are
                                      > differently
                                      > drawn by the early Arians, they argue that God's 'true' Reason and
                                      > Wisdom--that is, the Logos and Sophia which belong to his nature
                                      > alone--are
                                      > his intrinsic attributes. Contrary to the charges leveled at them, the
                                      > Arians did not teach that God was ever without *his own* Word and
                                      > Wisdom.
                                      > Athanasius knows this, for he preserved their doctrine of the one
                                      > Wisdom
                                      > which is God's own and exists in him (ten idian kai synyparchousan tw
                                      > thew),
                                      > distinguishable from the Son, and their parallel doctrine of the Word,
                                      > other
                                      > than the Son, which is in God. The accusation contained in Alexander's
                                      > enclyclical is correct: the Arians say that the Son 'is neither
                                      > similar to
                                      > the father in essence, nor is he truly and by nature (alethinos kai
                                      > physei)
                                      > the Word of God, nor is he true (alethine) Wisdom...".
                                      >
                                      >> Other theologians claimed that the Son wass of the same
                                      >> divine "substance" and eternal age as the Father. Also they referred
                                      >> the Gospel of John: Me and the Father are one, who sees Me sees the
                                      >> Father.
                                      >
                                      > Certainly, these phrases, in John, of, "Me and the Father are one",
                                      > and "Who
                                      > sees Me sees the Father", can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is God.
                                      >
                                      > However, they are also intepretable in terms of a Logos Christology
                                      >
                                      > See, for example, Fuga (101), where, regarding the Logos, Philo states,
                                      > "Nay, He is Himself the Image of God, chiefest of all Beings
                                      > intellectually
                                      > perceived, placed nearest, with no intervening distance, to the Alone
                                      > truly
                                      > existent One. For we read, 'I will talk with thee from above the
                                      > Mercy-seat, between the two Cherubim' (Ex. xxv. 21), words which shew
                                      > that
                                      > while the Logos is the charioteer of the Powers, He Who talks is
                                      > seated in
                                      > the chariot, giving directions to the charioteer for the right
                                      > wielding of
                                      > the reins of the Universe."
                                      >
                                      > Here, we see, the Logos is one with God, his Father, in two senses.
                                      > First,
                                      > there is "no intervening distance" between the Logos and God, so that,
                                      > in
                                      > some significant sense, they are a single entity. Second, the Logos
                                      > is one
                                      > in will with God, obediently obeying whatever God tells him to do.
                                      >
                                      > Here, we also see, the Logos is the Image of God, so that, in some
                                      > significant sense, to see the Logos is to see God.
                                      >
                                      > (snip)
                                      >
                                      >> We are used to hear always again that
                                      >> the Logos concept is the crown and peak of all Christology. This was
                                      >> originally for ancient people definitely not at all the case.
                                      >
                                      > Agreed.
                                      >
                                      >> The Logos
                                      >> is clearly less than and subordinate to the one God of Israel and also
                                      >> less than and beneeth the transcendent God of Plato There the Logos is
                                      >> the soul of the cosmos. In Jewish or Christian terms he is the
                                      >> mediator
                                      >> of creation and revelation. And he is necessary because in Platonism
                                      >> the absolutely transcendent God himself has no relation whatsoever
                                      >> with
                                      >> the material world except through a mediator. Therfore Philo shows not
                                      >> God, but the Logos speaking in the burnig thorn bush, on the mount
                                      >> Sinai, and so on.
                                      >
                                      > While Philo's Logos is not Plato's soul of the cosmos, it is important
                                      > to
                                      > note that Philo's Logos does play the same role. In Philo (Vol. 1,
                                      > Harvard
                                      > University Press, pp. 327-28), Harry Austryn Wolfson states, "While the
                                      > residence of the Logos in the corporeal world is conceived by him
                                      > (i.e.,
                                      > Philo), as we have said, after the analogy of the residence of Plato's
                                      > preexistent mind or soul in the body of the world, still Philo never
                                      > describes the immanent Logos as the mind or the soul of the world. His
                                      > immanent Logos, while performing the same functions as Plato's or the
                                      > Stoics' world-soul, is not a world-soul."
                                      >
                                      > Also, since Philo's Logos is the One through whom the Cosmos is
                                      > created,
                                      > Philo's Logos, even though not Plato's Demiurge, does play the same
                                      > role as
                                      > Plato's Demiurge.
                                      >
                                      > How does one explain why Philo's Logos plays the role of both Plato's
                                      > Demiurge and world-soul, yet is neither?
                                      >
                                      > What I suspect is that Philo was influenced by the Middle Platonist,
                                      > Eudorus
                                      > of Alexandria.
                                      >
                                      > As respects the teachings of Eudorus, Jerry Dell Ehrlich states in
                                      > Plato's
                                      > Gift to Christianity (Academic Christian Press, p. 104) that "the
                                      > ultimate
                                      > transcendent God is even further exalted, which was in keeping with the
                                      > general trend within Middle-Platonism that the First Principle of all
                                      > was
                                      > utterly transcendent, and the Creator of the World, the Demiurge, was a
                                      > Second Principle of creation, and the final principle, the third
                                      > element of
                                      > deity, was the World-Soul or World-Spirit. While this is an
                                      > interpretation
                                      > of Plato's own thoughts, it can be understood as an attempt at
                                      > systematizing
                                      > Plato's Absolute One in the Republic with the Father and Maker of the
                                      > Universe in the Timaeus and the Living Creature (Cosmos) or World-Soul
                                      > in
                                      > the Timaeus. While this view had tremendous influence on Philo of
                                      > Alexandria and the forming of the doctrine of the Christian Trinity, it
                                      > seems more likely that Plato himself would not have made a distinction
                                      > between the God beyond being and the Demiurge, the Father and Maker of
                                      > the
                                      > Cosmos."
                                      >
                                      > The important point here is that Eudorus did not equate the
                                      > transcendent God
                                      > with the Demiurge, so that there are, in his thought, three divine
                                      > beings,
                                      > i.e., the transcendent God, the Demiurge, and the World-soul.
                                      >
                                      > In Philonic thought, the Logos apparently combines the roles of both
                                      > Eudorus' Demiurge and World-Soul. The Cosmos was created through the
                                      > Logos
                                      > (so that he plays the same role as the Demiurge) and the Cosmos is
                                      > ruled
                                      > through the Logos, who suffuses himself through the Cosmos, bonding and
                                      > knitting together all its parts (so that he plays the role of the
                                      > World-Soul).
                                      >
                                      > Relevant to the discussion is Exodus (Book II, Sect. 68), where Philo
                                      > states, "And from the divine Logos, as from a spring, there divide and
                                      > break
                                      > forth two powers. One is the creative (power), though which the
                                      > Artificer
                                      > placed and ordered all things; this is named 'God.' And (the other
                                      > is) the
                                      > royal (power), since through it the Creator rules over created things;
                                      > this
                                      > is called 'Lord.'"
                                      >
                                      > I suggest that, here, we have a clue as to how the roles of Eudorus'
                                      > Demiurge and the World-soul came to be assigned to Philo's Logos.
                                      >
                                      > In particular, there appears to have been an intermediate step in
                                      > which the
                                      > role of Eudorus' Demiurge was assigned to an angelic power called the
                                      > Creative Power and given the title of God and in which the role of
                                      > Eudorus'
                                      > World-soul was assigned to an angelic power called the Royal Power and
                                      > given
                                      > the title of Lord. This step was presumably taken by an Alexandrian
                                      > Jew,
                                      > possibly, but not necessarily, Philo.
                                      >
                                      > In the final step, these two angelic powers were taken to be a part of
                                      > the
                                      > very self of the Logos. As a result, they emanate from the Logos like
                                      > two
                                      > streams from a fountain. As these two angelic powers are of the very
                                      > self
                                      > of the Logos, their roles are also the roles of the Logos. This last
                                      > step,
                                      > presumably, was taken by Philo.
                                      >
                                      > This explains why Philo gives the Logos the titles of God and Lord.
                                      > The
                                      > Logos is God because he has the role of "God" (i.e., the Creative
                                      > Power) and
                                      > he is Lord because he has the role of "Lord" (i.e., the Royal Power).
                                      >
                                      > In this case, the exclamation of Thomas, "My Lord and my God!", can be
                                      > interpreted to be a recognition, on the part of Thomas, that Jesus is
                                      > the
                                      > Logos: who combines, in one divine being, the Royal and Creative
                                      > powers.
                                      >
                                      > To conclude, it certainly is the case that, in John, there are some
                                      > statements which can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is God, e.g.,
                                      > Jesus'
                                      > declarations that he and the Father are one and that to see him is to
                                      > see
                                      > the Father and Thomas' confession that Jesus is both Lord and God.
                                      > However,
                                      > these same statements are also interpretable in terms of a Logos
                                      > Christology. In this case, there is a consistent Logos Christology in
                                      > both
                                      > the Prologue and the main body of John.
                                      >
                                      > Frank McCoy
                                      > 1809 N. English Apt. 15
                                      > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                                    • Peter.Hofrichter
                                      ... I wanted to write: Good bye! Sorry, but If it was a Freudian mistake, may be, my Unterbewusstsein wanted to recommad you to buy one of my books. So long!
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Feb 10, 2004
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                                        Am 10.02.2004 um 09:30 schrieb Peter.Hofrichter:

                                        > PS: Because of a journey I shall not be able to continue the dicussion.
                                        > Thanks to everybody and good buy!
                                        >
                                        I wanted to write: Good bye! Sorry, but If it was a Freudian mistake,
                                        may be, my Unterbewusstsein wanted to recommad you to buy one of my
                                        books. So long!
                                        P.H.
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