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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Redating gospel of John/Berger

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  • frideslameris
    Hi Mike, ... From: Mike Grondin To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: [John_Lit]
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 14, 2004
      Hi Mike,

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Mike Grondin <mwgrondin@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 11:33 PM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Redating gospel of John/Berger

      >
      > I think you do the early-daters no favor by citing this "innocent
      > perception" (as below):
      >
      > > It is not a doctrine about something at all, but the impression
      > > that a man makes, who is completely transparent for the divine
      > > presence in his own existence. That is an event (or: a happening)
      > > that, in this sense, is new.
      >
      > These are your words, I assume - not Berger's.

      I think Mark Matson has already indicated these are not my words,
      but Voegelins.

      > > Berger
      > > 'Because the Gospel of John paints this primary impression
      > > of Jesus so uncomparably intensive, it stands by
      > > content ('sachlich') and temporarily at the beginning.'
      >
      > Although I'm not opposed to early dating for (the first edition of)
      > GJn, this is not a particularly good argument for it, as stated.

      I fear you missed the point of my posting.

      The quote from Voegelin about which Berger makes a commenting sentence
      indicates, in my feeling and understanding, a (deep) feeling from
      Voegelin, recognized by Berger.

      It seems to confirm for him a liberating experience which he had in daring
      to go for an early dating of John, as he states in the Preface (upturning
      a
      long German debate (since ca 1835?) on the supposed (late) dating of this
      gospel, upturning ...gospel = my comment Fri).

      For him Voegelins text seems to have a deep signifance!

      But, of course, the general reader, before coming across Bergers quote
      of Voegelin, would have already digested before (hopefully) 300 pages
      of well and highly reasoned early dating stuff!

      So the chance will be small that they will evaluate this quote
      as 'rethorical flourish' or 'faith-talk' or some other designation ONLY.

      And here I (emphasised) become poetical:

      'It rains, it snows, the sun shines, there is more to life (and exegesis!)
      than (relatively dry) arguments only'!

      Best wishes

      Frides Laméris
      Zuidlaren, Netherlands
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