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Re: [John_Lit] u/v substitution

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  • Bob Schacht
    ... Happy New Year to everyone! In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution is not the right word. Isn t the WAW also transcribed
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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      At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
      >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in Russian.

      Happy New Year to everyone!

      In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution is
      not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I have seen
      Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of the
      (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
      training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it is not
      so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
      English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
      Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???

      If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
      mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
      Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.

      Bob Schacht
    • big_mart_2003
      -- ... attempt to ... during ... Nay, not so. Horrocks and others have the modern pronunciation substantially in place by the second century BC. It surprised
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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        --
        > Actually, Mike, the second one fits, too. Dheftera is Martin's
        attempt to
        > transliterate the modern Greek pronunciation of "Deutera". The "d" is
        > pronounced as a hrad "th" (as in "that"), and the "u" is pronounced "f".
        > "Thank you" in Modern Greek is pronounced "efcharisto", and written
        > "eucharisto". I shall now offend all listmembers of Greek descent by
        > suggesting this is due to the pollution that came upon the language
        during
        > centuries of Turkish domination.

        Nay, not so. Horrocks and others have the modern pronunciation
        substantially in place by the second century BC. It surprised me when
        I first read it too.

        Mart.
      • big_mart_2003
        ... in Russian. ... substitution is ... have seen ... the ... is not ... There are vowel signs which go above or below the line, but are only written in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht
          <bobschacht@i...> wrote:
          > At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
          > >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also
          in Russian.
          >
          > Happy New Year to everyone!
          >
          > In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps
          substitution is
          > not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I
          have seen
          > Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of
          the
          > (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
          > training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it
          is not
          > so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
          > English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
          > Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???
          >
          > If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
          > mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
          > Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.
          >
          > Bob Schacht

          There are vowel signs which go above or below the line, but are only
          written in documents where correct pronunciation is especially
          important. Paradoxically, some Hebrew documents have the vowel signs
          for "Adonai" written with the YHWH tetragrammaton, to avoid writing
          the most holy name, hence the KJ error.

          Mart.
        • Stephen C. Carlson
          ... Actually, it predates the Turks by several centuries; see Geoffrey Horrocks s book on the history of the Greek language for more information, who dates
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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            At 08:44 PM 1/1/04 -0000, John E Staton wrote:
            >I shall now offend all listmembers of Greek descent by
            >suggesting this is due to the pollution that came upon the language during
            >centuries of Turkish domination. However, I believe that almost all of the
            >pronunciation differences between modern Greek and classical are in the
            >direction of the normal Turkish pronunciation of the words concerned.
            >Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in Russian.

            Actually, it predates the Turks by several centuries; see Geoffrey
            Horrocks's book on the history of the Greek language for more
            information, who dates this change to the Roman period of Greek.

            Stephen Carlson
            --
            Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
            Weblog: http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/hypotyposeis/blogger.html
            "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 5, 2004
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bob Schacht" <bobschacht@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] u/v substitution


              > At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
              > >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in
              Russian.
              >
              > Happy New Year to everyone!
              >
              > In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution
              is
              > not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I have seen
              > Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of the
              > (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
              > training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it is not
              > so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
              > English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
              > Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???
              >
              > If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
              > mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
              > Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.

              WAW did not become VAV until medieval times, hence it was not used for a
              "vee" sound in ancient Hebrew. This is still preserved in Yemenite Hebrew.
              YHWH is JHVH is German (same pronounciation) and the word originated in the
              15th century in German monasteries taking the vowel sounds from "adonai" on
              the assumption that yod-heh=waw=heh are consonants and not vowels....I am
              not so sure.

              Jack
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