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Greek names for days

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  • John E Staton
    Martin Edwards lists (second through first): ... Mike Grondin comments: ... of which only days three through five (Triti thru Pempti) seem to be strictly based
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2004
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      Martin Edwards lists (second through first):
      Martin Edwards lists:
      > Dheftera, Triti, Tetarti, Pempti, Paraskevi, Savvato, Kiriaki

      Mike Grondin comments:
      ... of which only days three through five (Triti thru Pempti) seem
      to be strictly based on the names of the ordinals (day two should
      presumably be 'Deuteri', e.g.).

      Actually, Mike, the second one fits, too. Dheftera is Martin's attempt to
      transliterate the modern Greek pronunciation of "Deutera". The "d" is
      pronounced as a hrad "th" (as in "that"), and the "u" is pronounced "f".
      "Thank you" in Modern Greek is pronounced "efcharisto", and written
      "eucharisto". I shall now offend all listmembers of Greek descent by
      suggesting this is due to the pollution that came upon the language during
      centuries of Turkish domination. However, I believe that almost all of the
      pronunciation differences between modern Greek and classical are in the
      direction of the normal Turkish pronunciation of the words concerned.
      Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in Russian.

      A Happy New Year to you all

      Best Wishes
      JOHN E STATON
      jestaton@...
      www.jestaton.org
    • Bob Schacht
      ... Happy New Year to everyone! In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution is not the right word. Isn t the WAW also transcribed
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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        At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
        >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in Russian.

        Happy New Year to everyone!

        In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution is
        not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I have seen
        Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of the
        (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
        training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it is not
        so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
        English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
        Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???

        If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
        mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
        Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.

        Bob Schacht
      • big_mart_2003
        -- ... attempt to ... during ... Nay, not so. Horrocks and others have the modern pronunciation substantially in place by the second century BC. It surprised
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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          --
          > Actually, Mike, the second one fits, too. Dheftera is Martin's
          attempt to
          > transliterate the modern Greek pronunciation of "Deutera". The "d" is
          > pronounced as a hrad "th" (as in "that"), and the "u" is pronounced "f".
          > "Thank you" in Modern Greek is pronounced "efcharisto", and written
          > "eucharisto". I shall now offend all listmembers of Greek descent by
          > suggesting this is due to the pollution that came upon the language
          during
          > centuries of Turkish domination.

          Nay, not so. Horrocks and others have the modern pronunciation
          substantially in place by the second century BC. It surprised me when
          I first read it too.

          Mart.
        • big_mart_2003
          ... in Russian. ... substitution is ... have seen ... the ... is not ... There are vowel signs which go above or below the line, but are only written in
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob Schacht
            <bobschacht@i...> wrote:
            > At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
            > >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also
            in Russian.
            >
            > Happy New Year to everyone!
            >
            > In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps
            substitution is
            > not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I
            have seen
            > Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of
            the
            > (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
            > training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it
            is not
            > so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
            > English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
            > Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???
            >
            > If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
            > mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
            > Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.
            >
            > Bob Schacht

            There are vowel signs which go above or below the line, but are only
            written in documents where correct pronunciation is especially
            important. Paradoxically, some Hebrew documents have the vowel signs
            for "Adonai" written with the YHWH tetragrammaton, to avoid writing
            the most holy name, hence the KJ error.

            Mart.
          • Stephen C. Carlson
            ... Actually, it predates the Turks by several centuries; see Geoffrey Horrocks s book on the history of the Greek language for more information, who dates
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 2, 2004
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              At 08:44 PM 1/1/04 -0000, John E Staton wrote:
              >I shall now offend all listmembers of Greek descent by
              >suggesting this is due to the pollution that came upon the language during
              >centuries of Turkish domination. However, I believe that almost all of the
              >pronunciation differences between modern Greek and classical are in the
              >direction of the normal Turkish pronunciation of the words concerned.
              >Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in Russian.

              Actually, it predates the Turks by several centuries; see Geoffrey
              Horrocks's book on the history of the Greek language for more
              information, who dates this change to the Roman period of Greek.

              Stephen Carlson
              --
              Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
              Weblog: http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/hypotyposeis/blogger.html
              "Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
            • Jack Kilmon
              ... From: Bob Schacht To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 5, 2004
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bob Schacht" <bobschacht@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:54 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] u/v substitution


                > At 08:44 PM 1/1/2004 +0000, John E Staton wrote:
                > >... Actually, the substitution of "u" with "f" or "v" is seen also in
                Russian.
                >
                > Happy New Year to everyone!
                >
                > In Hebrew, is there also a similar substitution? Or perhaps substitution
                is
                > not the right word. Isn't the WAW also transcribed VAV so that I have seen
                > Yahweh transliterated both as YHWH and YHVH-- and isn't this part of the
                > (mis)understanding involved in the KJV Jehovah? Actually, from my brief
                > training in Arabic, one of the things I seem to remember is that it is not
                > so much a matter of substitution as that the WAW is ambiguous, and that
                > English makes a phonemic distinction that is not made in
                > Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic???
                >
                > If the above sentences are riddled with mistakes, I throw myself on the
                > mercy of the court and plead only that I am traveling (currently in
                > Michigan) and so my usual reference works are not available.

                WAW did not become VAV until medieval times, hence it was not used for a
                "vee" sound in ancient Hebrew. This is still preserved in Yemenite Hebrew.
                YHWH is JHVH is German (same pronounciation) and the word originated in the
                15th century in German monasteries taking the vowel sounds from "adonai" on
                the assumption that yod-heh=waw=heh are consonants and not vowels....I am
                not so sure.

                Jack
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