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Re: Farewell Discourse>The Johannine Tradition

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  • kymhsm
    Mike, You wrote:
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 14, 2003
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      You wrote:

      <<<By "the Johannine pattern", I assume you mean sevenfold
      structures. But it appears from your listing of Lukan structures
      that some of them are not sevenfold. Where do you suppose
      these came from?>>>

      Please read my whole post, at least. Different sized structures
      are explained. Or perhaps wait until I send you the work I
      promised you.

      <<<Secondly - and assuming what is yet to be shown namely,
      that GLk contains "Johannine-type" structures) - since you are
      allowed to freely speculate about all kinds of things, what is to
      prevent someone else from speculating that Luke simply wrote
      his gospel in a different style than Acts? I.e., that in the former, he
      mimicked the Markan chiastic style, but in the latter, he felt free to
      adopt a quite different style?>>>

      Again, for `Markan', you must be meaning Johannine. Yes, you
      may speculate that way if you wish, but it would hardly be
      satisfactory. Thinking and writing chiastically was very much part
      of eastern culture, particularly Jewish. It was hardly something
      you would just mimic for the sake of it. It would be part of your
      thinking and writing style or it would not. Especially given the
      importance of what Luke was producing, it would be part of all
      that he did or nothing that he did.

      <<<Thirdly, I notice that your list of Lukan structures does not
      contain the birth narrative. According to my proposal (which you
      called 'generally sound'), any Lukan material not in GMark is
      expected to exhibit a chiastic structure, and if it does not, that
      would be evidence against the "Council leftovers" view (at least
      with respect to that passage). So do you concede that at least
      the Lukan birth narrative is not "Council leftovers"?>>>

      I have not stated at any stage that all of John's leftovers must be
      chiastic in form. All I am saying is that what *is* chiastic is
      evidence of its Johannine origins. It is only those passages
      which are chiastic that we can be certain came from John's
      resources. What I have also said is that those at the `council' –
      the apostles and eyewitnesses - collated much material. It may
      have been the intention for John – as an encouraging
      communication to the faithful - to use only what is more direct
      teaching material rather than, for example, the more enigmatic
      parables. So the parables used by Matthew and Luke may well
      have been (were, I think) gathered at the `council' but never
      `shaped' because either he never intended to use them or they
      changed frameworks for John (from the Markan to the Genesis)
      before they got around to so shaping it.

      <<<In this regard, could you clarify your suggestion about how
      the two different birth narratives came about? You seem to
      suggest that it was the same story written with two different
      points of focus (that of Joseph and that of Mary), but surely that's

      Why is it insupportable? Why is it not possible that between
      them they decided for one of them to present the story more from
      Joseph's perspective and the other from Mary's. Perhaps
      someone else on the list could help out. Would Matthew's
      Joseph-oriented birth narrative be better received by Jewish
      readers? Similarly Luke's Mary-oriented accounts by Gentile
      readers? Then again, rather than both include all, it may have
      been a simple decision, for the sake of space, that between
      them they got the whole story out. Is it not likely that if they were
      writing quite independently that there would be more of a
      crossover of materials in the birth and childhood narratives?

      Kym Smith
      South Australia
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