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Re: [John_Lit] Re: History and the Farewell Discourse

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  • Pete Phillips
    Thanks for providing some links seeing that James had asked for them. But I do agree with James that this is a side issue. Just because you had a wax tablet
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 7, 2003
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      Thanks for providing some links seeing that James had asked for them. But I
      do agree with James that this is a side issue. Just because you had a wax
      tablet and stylus to make a few points to take home and ponder does not mean
      that we have a fully developed source stream analogous to Gospel source
      criticism. This is a red herring. I am sure that Thucydides and Xenophon
      re-wrote history and probably drew on their own learning but they did not
      see history through the same perspective and so wrote divergent accounts of
      it...history is not fiction.

      By the way has anyone else read the latest copy of Interpretation where
      there are a load of articles on all this history/fiction stuff? The way
      this argument is going, it may be a few of us need to readjust our
      preconceptions of what the ancients actually considered history to be.
      Let's throw aside the post-Enlightenment dichotomy between truth and
      fiction. It is not real! (well...not necessarily!)

      Pete Phillips
      Cliff College, Sheffield, UK
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Lupia" <jlupia2@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:33 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: History of the Farewell Discourse


      > --- Peter Phillips <p.m.phillips@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Pete:
      >
      > Yes, you are right. These texts were published as
      > standard editions (EKDOSEIS, cf. LSJ "EKDOSIS" 5 (a)
      > and (b) on page 505 column 1) and were supplemented by
      > hypomnemata a form of commentary that elucidated the
      > texts taken from lecture notes by those who composed
      > them. Both the standard edition and hypomnemata
      > (commentaries) took the form of paraphrases (centos)
      > as the Greek language changed in syntax and
      > vocabulary. (cf. LSJ "hUPOMNHMATIZOMAI" 3 on page 1889
      > column 2; "hUPOMNHMATIKOS" 2 (ibid), "hUPOMNHMATISMOS"
      > (b) (ibid); and Frederick Hall, A Companion to
      > Classical Texts ()xford, 1913): 26,32,41.) Of interest
      > is the application to the Gospel compositions,
      > particularly John since his contains extensive
      > discourse material that just might be the reult of
      > note taking. The late Rev. Brian Wilson had written
      > about the possibility of note taking and the possible
      > written records from which the Gospels were composed.
      >
      > John
      >
      > > Hi John,
      > >
      > > It does seem likely that they took notes. As I
      > > understand it, the vast
      > > majority of the corpus of Aristotle, if not Plato
      > > and certainly Socrates has
      > > survived because of students' notes.
      > >
      > > Pete Phillips
      > > Cliff College, Sheffield, UK
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "John Lupia" <jlupia2@...>
      > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 6:13 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: History of the Farewell
      > > Discourse
      > >
      > >
      > > > --- Mike Grondin:
      > > > > I'm trying to figure what you see as plausible
      > > about
      > > > > this scenario,
      > > > > Kym. When were these apostles supposed to have
      > > sat
      > > > > down to engage
      > > > > in their brain-storming session? Relatively
      > > close to
      > > > > 68 CE? Or
      > > > > shortly after the events in question, put down
      > > then
      > > > > in writing
      > > > > perhaps and only disseminated over three decades
      > > > > later? I'm afraid
      > > > > that neither seems very plausible - the former
      > > > > because who can
      > > > > remember what they heard thirty years ago, the
      > > > > latter because there
      > > > > would seem to be no reason to delay
      > > dissemination of
      > > > > such a text
      > > > > for such a long period of time.
      > > >
      > > > More important is the question: "Is there any
      > > > historical evidence that students (disciples) in
      > > > antiquity took notes when their teacher (master)
      > > gave
      > > > discourses?"
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > What we have here, of course, is a radical
      > > > > disagreement about the
      > > > > nature of the Farewell Discourse and GJn in
      > > general.
      > > > > You see the
      > > > > FD as history recollected. Others (dare I say
      > > most
      > > > > NT scholars?)
      > > > > see it as a pious fiction,
      > > >
      > > > Do any of these NT scholars discuss the above
      > > > question?
      > > >
      > > > John
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > > John N. Lupia, III
      > > > Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
      > > > Phone: (732) 505-5325
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
      > > > God Bless America
      > > >
      > > > __________________________________
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      >
      >
      > =====
      > John N. Lupia, III
      > Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
      > Phone: (732) 505-5325
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
      > God Bless America
      >
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      >
    • Pete Phillips
      Thanks for providing some links seeing that James had asked for them. But I do agree with James that this is a side issue. Just because you had a wax tablet
      Message 2 of 2 , Oct 7, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks for providing some links seeing that James had asked for them. But I
        do agree with James that this is a side issue. Just because you had a wax
        tablet and stylus to make a few points to take home and ponder does not mean
        that we have a fully developed source stream analogous to Gospel source
        criticism. This is a red herring. I am sure that Thucydides and Xenophon
        re-wrote history and probably drew on their own learning but they did not
        see history through the same perspective and so wrote divergent accounts of
        it...history is not fiction.

        By the way has anyone else read the latest copy of Interpretation where
        there are a load of articles on all this history/fiction stuff? The way
        this argument is going, it may be a few of us need to readjust our
        preconceptions of what the ancients actually considered history to be.
        Let's throw aside the post-Enlightenment dichotomy between truth and
        fiction. It is not real! (well...not necessarily!)

        Pete Phillips
        Cliff College, Sheffield, UK
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Lupia" <jlupia2@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 9:33 PM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: History of the Farewell Discourse


        > --- Peter Phillips <p.m.phillips@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Pete:
        >
        > Yes, you are right. These texts were published as
        > standard editions (EKDOSEIS, cf. LSJ "EKDOSIS" 5 (a)
        > and (b) on page 505 column 1) and were supplemented by
        > hypomnemata a form of commentary that elucidated the
        > texts taken from lecture notes by those who composed
        > them. Both the standard edition and hypomnemata
        > (commentaries) took the form of paraphrases (centos)
        > as the Greek language changed in syntax and
        > vocabulary. (cf. LSJ "hUPOMNHMATIZOMAI" 3 on page 1889
        > column 2; "hUPOMNHMATIKOS" 2 (ibid), "hUPOMNHMATISMOS"
        > (b) (ibid); and Frederick Hall, A Companion to
        > Classical Texts ()xford, 1913): 26,32,41.) Of interest
        > is the application to the Gospel compositions,
        > particularly John since his contains extensive
        > discourse material that just might be the reult of
        > note taking. The late Rev. Brian Wilson had written
        > about the possibility of note taking and the possible
        > written records from which the Gospels were composed.
        >
        > John
        >
        > > Hi John,
        > >
        > > It does seem likely that they took notes. As I
        > > understand it, the vast
        > > majority of the corpus of Aristotle, if not Plato
        > > and certainly Socrates has
        > > survived because of students' notes.
        > >
        > > Pete Phillips
        > > Cliff College, Sheffield, UK
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "John Lupia" <jlupia2@...>
        > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 6:13 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: History of the Farewell
        > > Discourse
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- Mike Grondin:
        > > > > I'm trying to figure what you see as plausible
        > > about
        > > > > this scenario,
        > > > > Kym. When were these apostles supposed to have
        > > sat
        > > > > down to engage
        > > > > in their brain-storming session? Relatively
        > > close to
        > > > > 68 CE? Or
        > > > > shortly after the events in question, put down
        > > then
        > > > > in writing
        > > > > perhaps and only disseminated over three decades
        > > > > later? I'm afraid
        > > > > that neither seems very plausible - the former
        > > > > because who can
        > > > > remember what they heard thirty years ago, the
        > > > > latter because there
        > > > > would seem to be no reason to delay
        > > dissemination of
        > > > > such a text
        > > > > for such a long period of time.
        > > >
        > > > More important is the question: "Is there any
        > > > historical evidence that students (disciples) in
        > > > antiquity took notes when their teacher (master)
        > > gave
        > > > discourses?"
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > What we have here, of course, is a radical
        > > > > disagreement about the
        > > > > nature of the Farewell Discourse and GJn in
        > > general.
        > > > > You see the
        > > > > FD as history recollected. Others (dare I say
        > > most
        > > > > NT scholars?)
        > > > > see it as a pious fiction,
        > > >
        > > > Do any of these NT scholars discuss the above
        > > > question?
        > > >
        > > > John
        > > >
        > > > =====
        > > > John N. Lupia, III
        > > > Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
        > > > Phone: (732) 505-5325
        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        > > > God Bless America
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product
        > > search
        > > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
        > > >
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        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
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        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > =====
        > John N. Lupia, III
        > Toms River New Jersey 08757 USA
        > Phone: (732) 505-5325
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        > God Bless America
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
        > http://shopping.yahoo.com
        >
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