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RE: [John_Lit] Re: John19:34/Matt27:49

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  • Paul Anderson
    I ve been thinking about your question, Ramsey--a good one indeed. It seems there were dialogues between the later Johannine and Matthean traditions--not
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 18, 2003
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      I've been thinking about your question, Ramsey--a good one indeed.

      It seems there were dialogues between the later Johannine and Matthean traditions--not necessarily in dialogue with written material, but in dialogue with aspects of defending Jesus as the authentic Mosaic prophet (Deut. 18), aspects of church organization and governance, and this might be a further example. It may be an example of interfluential contact between the later Johannine and Matthean traditions.

      The way that I might put it is that the Johannine eyewitness emphasis at 19:34f. emphasizes an antidocetic point--Jesus really did suffer and die. At least one Matthean text apparently picks up this association, whether directly or indirectly from the Johannine emphasis or even from another source, and seems to use it for a similar purpose. What is hard to know is why the other texts do not include it. Perhaps there's something to your observation that the killing of Jesus with a spear may have jarred with other presentations (such as John's self-giving Jesus, 10:18) may be the way forward here. Not a bad conjecture!

      Paul

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ramsey Michaels [mailto:profram@...]
      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:39 AM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: John19:34/Matt27:49


      Thanks for all the comments, but I am interested in the very narrow question
      of the relation between these two texts. As it stands, Jn 19:34 is the only
      reference within the Gospel passion narratives to Jesus literally shedding
      his blood on the cross. Surprising in view of the major emphasis on blood in
      Paul and elsewhere. Mt 27:49 would add one more, albeit closely related.

      The Last Supper is earlier, and doesn't tell us how or where Jesus' blood
      will be "poured out" (if indeed 'poured out' refers to the blood rather than
      the wine at the table). Lk 22:43 is in the garden, not on the cross and is
      also textually disputed in any case.

      And enen in Jn 19:34, Christ's blood is shed *after* he dies. By contrast,
      in Matthew's variant the spear thrust is what kills him. Does this have
      anything to do with Jn 10:18?

      Also, I have a number of questions about the place of Mt 27:49 in Mt's
      passion story and about Mt's thinking about blood, but that's another list I
      guess.

      Ramsey Michaels



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 3:05 PM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: John19:34/Matt27:49


      > Ramsey,
      >
      > Most Christian readers assume "blood and water" alludes to baptism and
      > Eucharist.
      >
      > However, I think the source is pre-Christian. It is probably an allusion
      to
      > the dawn libations of Sukkoth [Tabernacles]. While not found in the
      various
      > Mosaic prescriptions, this popular 2nd Temple rite is described in the
      > Mishnah (Sukk. 4.9). The Fourth Gospel takes great care to mingle [sorry
      > about the pun] blood and water in its teachings on cleansing. Those
      teaching
      > are found in the various pericopes concerning water that are unique to
      this
      > Gospel; one includes a direct reference to Sukkoth (Jn. 7.53 cf. Zech.
      14).
      >
      > Many NES scholars, including myself, believe the practice of Sukkoth
      > libations stemmed from a common rite for the care and feeding of the dead.
      > This "cult of the dead" was found throughout the ANE and, in at least some
      > instances, figured highly in the vintage harvest festivals (see de Moor,
      J.
      > C. New Year With Canaanites and Israelites. 2 vols. Kamper Cahiers, nos.
      21,
      > 22. Kampen: Kok, 1972.). The Sukkoth libations were accompanied by prayers
      > for rain and the resurrection of the dead, both still found in
      contemporary
      > Judaism.
      >
      > The relationship of the crucifixion to the resurrection is obvious, as is
      > the fact that Matthew and John are the most Jewish of the four canonical
      > gospels. I think this explains the appearance of the phrase in both. If
      the
      > Feast [for so it was known] was also the cultic setting for an annual
      > enthronement of the Israelite king [as some have argued], its place in
      John
      > is even more apropos.
      >
      > Unfortunately, all this still begs the question of which gospel has
      > priority. My own study suggests it was integral to John, less so to
      Matthew.
      > With such a widely known practice, I doubt we will ever be able to
      determine
      > whether Matthew [or a later redactor] came up with it independently or
      > borrowed it from John/the Johannine tradition].
      >
      > I have an extensive bibliography on Sukkoth [part of my UMich
      > dissertation.]. I'll e-mail it to you off list if you're interested.
      >
      > Timothy P. Jenney
      >
      >
      >
      > > From: "Ramsey Michaels" <profram@...>
      > > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:58:16 -0400
      > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Subject: [John_Lit] John19:34/Matt27:49
      > >
      > > Getting back to John (at least in part):
      > >
      > > Why are commentators and text critics so unanimous in claiming that Mt
      27:49
      > > (about 'water and blood' from Jesus' side) is not an original part of
      Mt's
      > > text, given its support by Aleph and B.
      > >
      > > To me, there are four possibilities;
      > >
      > > a. It is pre-Matthean, pre-Johannine tradition which John (but not
      Matthew)
      > > has adopted (and adapted) into his Gospel.
      > > b. It is pre-Matthean, pre-Johannine tradition which both John and
      Matthew
      > > have adopted.
      > > c. It is Matthew's composition, and John knew and used Matthew, adapting
      it
      > > slightly.
      > > d. Matthew adopted (and adapted) it from John.
      > > e. It is a post-Johannine addition to Matthew, added to harmonize
      Matthew
      > > with John.
      > >
      > > Why is scholarship almost unanimous in choosing (e) over (a), (b), (c),
      or
      > > (d)? If its purpose was harmonization, why doesn't it succeed in
      harmonizing
      > > them? For example, was the spear thrust before or after Jesus died? Is
      it
      > > significant that the word order "water and blood" agrees with 1 Jn 5:6
      but
      > > not with Jn 19:34?
      > >
      > > Just wondering.
      > >
      > > Ramsey Michaels
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Just, Felix" <fjust@...>
      > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 2:41 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Catholic Exegesis
      > >
      > >
      > >> Let's get back to discussing Johannine Literature, please! Some
      recent
      > > postings have not been appropriate to the non-sectarian, ACADEMIC focus
      of
      > > this group, devoted to scholarly discussion of the Gospel and Epistles
      of
      > > John. Some have also elicted off-list complaints to the moderators, so
      > > let's try to get back on topic.
      > >>
      > >> (But we won't blame Lee alone; his off-topic posting got through due to
      an
      > > oversight by one of the moderators - i.e., me. Sorry!)
      > >>
      > >> Felix
      > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > >> Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.
      > >> Center for Religion and Spirituality
      > >> Loyola Marymount University
      > >> One LMU Drive, Suite 1840
      > >> Los Angeles, CA 90045-2659
      > >> 310-338-2799; FAX 310-338-2706
      > >> http://extension.lmu.edu/religion
      > >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>> -----Original Message-----
      > >>> From: Lee Dahn [mailto:ldahn@...]
      > >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 9:34 PM
      > >>> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      > >>> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Catholic Exegesis
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Bob Schacht wrote:
      > >>> "I shall declare a few of my own biases, which are more
      > >>> Protestant in substance: the priesthood of all believers,
      > >>> such that I believe God gave us brains, and expects us to use
      > >>> them to form independent judgments, and not merely to
      > >>> rationalize positions decreed by dogma."
      > >>>
      > >>> Bob, how does the doctrine of the "priesthood of all
      > >>> believers" relate to textual interpretation? It seems to me
      > >>> that it refers more to our entrance before God, as opposed to
      > >>> a required earthly preistly mediator (see Heb).
      > >>>
      > >>> Lee
      > >>
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      > >
      > >
      > >
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