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[John_Lit] Re: Messiah

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  • Big_Mart_98
    - What of the array of ancient Palestinian and Diaspora ... intention. But ... Not a lot, but I have read a lot of academic works which refer to them. The
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2003
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      What of the array of ancient Palestinian and Diaspora
      > Jewish literature **have** you read?
      >
      > Please forgive me if I sound blunt on this matter. It's not my
      intention. But
      > I'd really like to have the answers to these questions.
      >
      > JG
      >
      Not a lot, but I have read a lot of academic works which refer to
      them. The orientation of the scholars I have read is probably
      somewhat different from your own.

      Mart.
    • Big_Mart_98
      - ... It s a fair point that it is only a short step to deification, but I don t feel that it has actually been made in any of the sources you quote. On the
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2003
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        > "Moses therefore describes the perfect man as being neither God nor
        > man, but, as I said before, something on the border between
        > uncreated and the perishable nature."(On Dreams 2.234)
        >
        > It's a short step from this to deification, I would think.
        >
        > So how can you safely say that deification is a departure from
        > Judaism?
        >
        > Regards,
        > Rick Sumner
        > Calgary, Alberta Canada

        It's a fair point that it is only a short step to deification, but I
        don't feel that it has actually been made in any of the sources you
        quote. On the other hand I realize from this discussion that I have
        behaved unhistorically in reading rabbinic Judaism back into the
        period in question.

        Regards,
        Mart.
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... A problem that may be operating here, and to which I tried to draw attention before, is that you have not yet stated what your definition of deification
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2003
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          Big_Mart_98 wrote:

          >-
          >
          >
          >>"Moses therefore describes the perfect man as being neither God nor
          >>man, but, as I said before, something on the border between
          >>uncreated and the perishable nature."(On Dreams 2.234)
          >>
          >>It's a short step from this to deification, I would think.
          >>
          >>So how can you safely say that deification is a departure from
          >>Judaism?
          >>
          >>Regards,
          >>Rick Sumner
          >>Calgary, Alberta Canada
          >>
          >>
          >
          >It's a fair point that it is only a short step to deification, but I
          >don't feel that it has actually been made in any of the sources you
          >quote. On the other hand I realize from this discussion that I have
          >behaved unhistorically in reading rabbinic Judaism back into the
          >period in question.
          >
          >
          >
          A problem that may be operating here, and to which I tried to draw attention before, is that you have not yet stated what your definition of "deification" actually is, let alone that your definition is something that Philo or the author of John or of the Hymn Rick refers to would have accepted. Could you clarify please?

          JG
          --
          Jeffrey B. Gibson
          Chicago, Illinois
          e-mail jgibson000@...



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Possibly. But then again, without knowing who these scholars are or what the acdemic works are that you have read, it would be very difficult to say.
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 1, 2003
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            Big_Mart_98 wrote:

            >-
            >What of the array of ancient Palestinian and Diaspora
            >
            >
            >>Jewish literature **have** you read?
            >>
            >>Please forgive me if I sound blunt on this matter. It's not my
            >>
            >>
            >intention. But
            >
            >
            >>I'd really like to have the answers to these questions.
            >>
            >>JG
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >Not a lot, but I have read a lot of academic works which refer to
            >them. The orientation of the scholars I have read is probably
            >somewhat different from your own.
            >
            >
            Possibly. But then again, without knowing who these scholars are or what
            the acdemic works are that you have read, it would be very difficult to
            say. Care to name a few names?

            JG

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Big_Mart_98
            - ... attention before, is that you have not yet stated what your definition of deification actually is, let alone that your definition is something that
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 2, 2003
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              -
              > >
              > A problem that may be operating here, and to which I tried to draw
              attention before, is that you have not yet stated what your definition
              of "deification" actually is, let alone that your definition is
              something that Philo or the author of John or of the Hymn Rick refers
              to would have accepted. Could you clarify please?
              >
              > JG
              > --
              > Jeffrey B. Gibson
              > Chicago, Illinois
              > e-mail jgibson000@c...
              >
              >
              >
              As an unbeliever I do not have a definition myself. If, however, the
              writers in question believed that Yahweh was the one and only god (or
              God), I doubt whether they believed that Jesus was him (or Him)
              incarnate. The Docetists found a way out by declaring him only
              apparently human. I assume, and please correct me if this is wrong,
              that you believe that Jesus was a real human being. On that, at least,
              we agree.

              Mart.
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