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The Wind

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  • Big_Mart_98
    To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis, all ouk ithas pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai). Outos esti pas o gegennimenos ek tou pnevmatos. GJ
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 19, 2003
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      To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis, all' ouk ithas
      pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai). Outos esti pas o gegennimenos
      ek tou pnevmatos. GJ 3.08. (Transliteration according to modern
      pronunciation, see Horrocks and others).

      To me this reeks of Upanishadic influence. Comments?

      Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales). No current
      institution.
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Martin Edwards cited:
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 19, 2003
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        Martin Edwards cited:

        <To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis,
        all' ouk ithas pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai).
        Outos esti pas o gegennimenos ek tou pnevmatos. GJ
        3.08. (Transliteration according to modern
        pronunciation, see Horrocks and others).>

        Then remarked:

        <To me this reeks of Upanishadic influence>

        Why?

        <Comments?>

        Yes. Be more explicit.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • Tony Costa
        Martin, I don t know why this reeks of Upanishadic influence to you. TO PNEUMA here is a reference to the Holy Spirit, and the Jewish idea of the Spirit of
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 19, 2003
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          Martin, I don't know why this reeks of "Upanishadic influence" to you. TO
          PNEUMA here is a reference to the Holy Spirit, and the Jewish idea of the
          Spirit of God was nothing like the Hindu concept of Brahman. While the
          Upanishads teach pantheism and monism, that all is Brahman, this worldview
          cannot be pressed on the Fourth Gospel which makes a clear cut contrast
          between spirit and flesh. Those who are born of the PNEUMA (John 3:5), are
          "born from above" or "born again" . They are also said to be born of God.
          (John 1:12-13) The "God" that the Fourth Gospel speaks of is a personal
          Being unlike the impersonal Brahman. With this in mind, I think it is clear
          that there is no coonection with Upanishadic influence. Best regards,

          Tony Costa, M.A.
          University of Toronto

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Big_Mart_98" <big_mart_98@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:08 PM
          Subject: [John_Lit] The Wind


          > To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis, all' ouk ithas
          > pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai). Outos esti pas o gegennimenos
          > ek tou pnevmatos. GJ 3.08. (Transliteration according to modern
          > pronunciation, see Horrocks and others).
          >
          > To me this reeks of Upanishadic influence. Comments?
          >
          > Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales). No current
          > institution.
          >
          >
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        • kymhsm
          Dear Martin, Jesus background, and that of the Gospel of John, is
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 19, 2003
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            Dear Martin,

            <<< tou pnevmatos. GJ 3.08. ... To me this reeks of
            Upanishadic influence. Comments?>>>

            Jesus' background, and that of the Gospel of John, is the Old
            Testament. Jesus' words and the Fourth Gospel generally are
            saturated with references - explicit and implicit - to the OT. John's
            writer/s was/were obviously steeped in the language and
            thinking of the Hebrew Scriptures.

            When it comes to Jesus' reference to the 'wind' he is mindful that
            the Hebrew word for 'Spirit' also means 'breath' or 'wind'. He had
            no need - nor, I suspect, any desire (cf Jn 4:22) - to go outside of
            the Hebrew traditions to give expression to what he wanted to
            say.

            Sincerely,

            Kym Smith
          • Big_Mart_98
            ... Unfortunately I can t remember the exact reference, but the one that springs most readily to mind is, Whoso knows this Brahman becomes the universe. Even
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
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              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges
              <jefferyhodges@y...> wrote:
              > Martin Edwards cited:
              >
              > <To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis,
              > all' ouk ithas pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai).
              > Outos esti pas o gegennimenos ek tou pnevmatos. GJ
              > 3.08. (Transliteration according to modern
              > pronunciation, see Horrocks and others).>
              >
              > Then remarked:
              >
              > <To me this reeks of Upanishadic influence>
              >
              > Why?
              >
              > <Comments?>
              >
              > Yes. Be more explicit.
              >
              > Jeffery Hodges
              >
              Unfortunately I can't remember the exact reference, but the one that
              springs most readily to mind is, "Whoso knows this Brahman becomes the
              universe. Even the gods cannot kill him because he has become them."
              "Atman" means both "breath" and "self" in the same way that "pnevma"
              can mean both "wind" and "spirit".

              Martin Edwards.
            • Big_Mart_98
              ... you. TO ... of the ... worldview ... 3:5), are ... God. ... is clear ... Upanishadic, but the use of language is similar. See my reply above. Martin
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
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                --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Costa" <tmcos@r...>
                wrote:
                > Martin, I don't know why this reeks of "Upanishadic influence" to
                you. TO
                > PNEUMA here is a reference to the Holy Spirit, and the Jewish idea
                of the
                > Spirit of God was nothing like the Hindu concept of Brahman. While the
                > Upanishads teach pantheism and monism, that all is Brahman, this
                worldview
                > cannot be pressed on the Fourth Gospel which makes a clear cut contrast
                > between spirit and flesh. Those who are born of the PNEUMA (John
                3:5), are
                > "born from above" or "born again" . They are also said to be born of
                God.
                > (John 1:12-13) The "God" that the Fourth Gospel speaks of is a personal
                > Being unlike the impersonal Brahman. With this in mind, I think it
                is clear
                > that there is no coonection with Upanishadic influence. Best regards,
                >
                >Fair comment. I don't really think that the content of the verse is
                Upanishadic, but the use of language is similar. See my reply above.

                Martin Edwards.
              • Big_Mart_98
                ... No doubt that is true in general, but what is the OT reference here? Martin Edwards.
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
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                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "kymhsm" <khs@p...> wrote:
                  > Dear Martin,
                  >
                  > <<< tou pnevmatos. GJ 3.08. ... To me this reeks of
                  > Upanishadic influence. Comments?>>>
                  >
                  > Jesus' background, and that of the Gospel of John, is the Old
                  > Testament. Jesus' words and the Fourth Gospel generally are
                  > saturated with references - explicit and implicit - to the OT. John's
                  > writer/s was/were obviously steeped in the language and
                  > thinking of the Hebrew Scriptures.
                  >
                  >
                  > Kym Smith

                  No doubt that is true in general, but what is the OT reference here?

                  Martin Edwards.
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Martin Edwards cited (from memory): Then --
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
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                    Martin Edwards cited (from memory):

                    <"Whoso knows this Brahman becomes the universe. Even
                    the gods cannot kill him because he has become them.">

                    Then -- comparing it to John 3:8. -- remarked:

                    <"Atman" means both "breath" and "self" in the same
                    way that "pnevma" can mean both "wind" and "spirit".>

                    None of this seems particularly close to me. At any
                    rate, you're more in the realm of comparative religion
                    than literary dependence.

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    =====
                    Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges (Inv.) [Ph.D., U.C. Berkeley]
                    Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                    447-791 Kyunggido, Osan-City
                    Yangsandong 411
                    South Korea

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                  • Big_Mart_98
                    ... I guess so. I wasn t alleging direct literary dependence. It just seems that the tenor of thought is close, and I can t think of any other examples in
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 21, 2003
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                      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      <jefferyhodges@y...> wrote:
                      > Martin Edwards cited (from memory):
                      >
                      > <"Whoso knows this Brahman becomes the universe. Even
                      > the gods cannot kill him because he has become them.">
                      >
                      > Then -- comparing it to John 3:8. -- remarked:
                      >
                      > <"Atman" means both "breath" and "self" in the same
                      > way that "pnevma" can mean both "wind" and "spirit".>
                      >
                      > None of this seems particularly close to me. At any
                      > rate, you're more in the realm of comparative religion
                      > than literary dependence.
                      >
                      I guess so. I wasn't alleging direct literary dependence. It just
                      seems that the tenor of thought is close, and I can't think of any
                      other examples in the NT. The fact that I can't think of any doesn't
                      mean that there aren't any of course.
                    • wali van lohuizen
                      I am rather late with this posting. I was on a project abroad. Interesting to see the modern transliteration. I did some modern Grek when going there, so it
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 24, 2003
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                        I am rather late with this posting. I was on a project abroad.

                        Interesting to see the modern transliteration. I did some modern Grek when
                        going there, so it sounds quite familiar.
                        I only wonder why the gamma before e should not be y? Or this was not yet
                        so in Hellenistic times?

                        As to the reference to the Upanishads: in my opinion this phrase is a
                        typical spiritual /
                        mystic expression that one may find anywhere anytime in spiritual and
                        religious texts - though more often not.

                        In my view the personalization of the Spirit need not be 'gospel'. See the
                        comment that atman is both self and breath. Mind: the atman-self is like
                        spirit. It is not the whole personality but its fines aspect, the divine in
                        man. Then pneuma and atman appear close to one nother, if not identical as a
                        basic concept, apart from what each of both cultures have clad it into.

                        Wali van Lohuizen, Amsterdam



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                        Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:13 PM
                        Subject: [John_Lit] The Wind


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                        To pnevma opou theli pni, ke tin fonin avtou akouis, all' ouk ithas
                        pothen erkhete ke pou ipagi (or ipai). Outos esti pas o gegennimenos
                        ek tou pnevmatos. GJ 3.08. (Transliteration according to modern
                        pronunciation, see Horrocks and others).

                        To me this reeks of Upanishadic influence. Comments?

                        Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales). No current
                        institution.


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                      • Big_Mart_98
                        ... not yet ... It still isn t in many places. It depends on your accent. Mart.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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                          > I only wonder why the gamma before e should not be y? Or this was
                          not yet
                          > so in Hellenistic times?
                          >
                          It still isn't in many places. It depends on your accent.
                          Mart.
                        • wali van lohuizen
                          The official pronunciation is y before e and i. See Langenscheidts Universal Woerterbuch e.g. Or can you provide me with other evidence? Would like to learn!
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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                            The official pronunciation is y before e and i. See Langenscheidts Universal
                            Woerterbuch e.g.
                            Or can you provide me with other evidence? Would like to learn!
                            Wali
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                            Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 8:22 PM
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] The Wind


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                            > I only wonder why the gamma before e should not be y? Or this was
                            not yet
                            > so in Hellenistic times?
                            >
                            It still isn't in many places. It depends on your accent.
                            Mart.


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                          • Big_Mart_98
                            ... Universal ... There are a lot of regional accents in Greek. That s all I can say. All the textbooks say what you said. I have found it otherwise in
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 26, 2003
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                              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "wali van lohuizen"
                              <BPBwalisufi@c...> wrote:
                              > The official pronunciation is y before e and i. See Langenscheidts
                              Universal
                              > Woerterbuch e.g.
                              > Or can you provide me with other evidence? Would like to learn!
                              > Wali

                              There are a lot of regional accents in Greek. That's all I can say.
                              All the textbooks say what you said. I have found it otherwise in Greece.
                              Mart.
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