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Re: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's

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  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
    ... In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B
    Message 1 of 11 , May 29, 2003
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      Bill Ross wrote:

      > <Bill>
      > > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
      > >
      > > Matt 24:
      > > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
      > > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
      > > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
      > > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:
      >
      > <Jeffrey>
      > >>No, he doesn't.
      >
      > <Bill>
      > What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
      > between verse 15 and verse 16? None?
      >
      > Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
      > To the appearance being an indicator of the end?
      >

      In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication
      that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears,
      namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem
      as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

      More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio
      principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE
      END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense. So
      too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis
      named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have
      shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of
      the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the
      language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify
      their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The
      Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God
      called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the
      EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's
      way for his people.

      Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is
      proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual
      exegesis and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in
      its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on
      the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of
      this in all of your posts), I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

      JG
      --

      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

      1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
      Chicago, IL 60626

      jgibson000@...
    • Bill Ross
      ... ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue: Dan 11: 1b ...and ***there shall
      Message 2 of 11 , May 29, 2003
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        <Jeff>
        >>...The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears, namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

        <Bill>
        ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue:

        Dan 11:
        1b ...and ***there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation*** even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
        2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [aiscunhn].
        3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

        So also Paul:

        2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [PAROUSIAS]:

        1 John 2:28 ΒΆ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him [aiscunywmen ap autou] at his coming [PAROUSIA].

        Isn't this Matt's perspective as well?

        15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
        16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
        ...
        21 For then shall be great tribulation, **such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be**.
        22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
        ...
        26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
        27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
        28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
        29 **Immediately after the tribulation of those days** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
        30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
        31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

        Luke does not see this discussion as demise but rescue:

        Luke 21:
        24 And they **shall fall by the edge of the sword [pesountai stomati macairhs]**, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
        25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
        26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
        27 And then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
        28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption [rescue] draweth nigh.
        29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
        30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
        31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

        ("Shall fall by the edge of the sword" and "led away captive" is from Daniel, as well as a period of time:

        Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall [Heb=KASHAL] by the sword [KHEREB], and by flame, by captivity [SHABIY], and by spoil, many days [YOM].

        So Paul sees a rescue from above:

        1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

        <Jeff>
        >>More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense.

        <Bill>
        The context is ambiguous but the reference to Daniel and the parousia are unavoidable:

        Matt 24:30 And then shall appear [fanhsetai] the sign of the son of man in [EN] heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see [opsontai] the Son of man coming in [EPI] the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [meta dunamews kai doxhs pollhs].

        <Jeff>
        >>So too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's way for his people.

        <Bill>
        Jeff, Caird and Wright have erected a straw man - there is no "end of the space time universe" in scripture. It is the parousia that is unmistakably in view, both in Daniel and in Matthew (and Luke and Paul and Revelation).

        What is correct is that it is plain that human beings are not going to seize the Promised Land by force but rather God that will give the victory by Jesus Christ.

        In fact, this is what 1 Cor 15:58 really says (contra most commentaries):

        1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [idiom="humans"] cannot [ou dunatai=is not powerful enough] inherit [klhronomhsai="seize" or "take over"] the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

        Rather, it will be a miraculous, divinely empowered conquest:

        51 Behold, I shew you a mystery [expouding a previously unintelligible saying]; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
        52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the call to the battle]: for the trumpet [the call to the battle] shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
        53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
        54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the [previously unintelligible] saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
        55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
        56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
        57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory [in the conquest of the promised land] through our Lord Jesus Christ.

        <Jeff>
        >>Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual exegesis

        <Bill>
        I have yet to see an example of your hermeneutic, other than dropping names of commentators!

        <Jeff>
        >>and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of this in all of your posts),

        <Bill>
        I read the commentaries but find it more helpful to see the connections with the scriptures the NT authors drew upon. I like my hermeneutic better than yours. Sorry to disappoint.

        <Jeff>
        >>I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

        <Bill>
        Perhaps you could just answer briefly these question (yes or no):

        * did 1 John expect his readers to be expecting the appearance of an antichrist?
        * did he see the appearance as indicative of the last hour?
        * is there a Jewish/christian tradition extant that might have led him to see things this way?

        My answer is yes to all 3. The tradition seems to be Daniel's abomination, Matthew's, Luke's and Paul's.

        Bill Ross
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