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RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's

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  • Bill Ross
    ... ... What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view between verse 15 and verse 16? None? Are you objecting to
    Message 1 of 11 , May 29 12:10 PM
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      <Bill>
      > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
      >
      > Matt 24:
      > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
      > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
      > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
      > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:

      <Jeffrey>
      >>No, he doesn't.

      <Bill>
      What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
      between verse 15 and verse 16? None?

      Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
      To the appearance being an indicator of the end?

      Matt 24:
      32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
      and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
      near, even at the doors.

      <Jeff>
      >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
      ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary
      to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those who were urging the
      the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the fall, not the
      deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late hour, let alone
      the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

      <Bill>
      I'm not up for unpacking all of Matt 24 right now, but suffice it to say
      that he clearly intends to dissuade his readers from expecting the
      kingdom imminently, but rather watching for the appropriate indicators -
      per Daniel:

      FALSE MESSIAHS DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
      4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
      you.
      5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall
      deceive many.

      WARS, FAMINES, PESTILENCES AND EARTHQUAKES DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
      6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
      troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not
      yet.
      7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
      and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers
      places.
      8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

      PERSECUTION DOES NOT SIGNAL THE END
      9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:
      and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
      10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and
      shall hate one another.
      11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
      12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
      13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

      THE GOSPEL WILL REACH THE WHOLE WORLD BEFORE THE END
      14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
      for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

      THE INTRODUCTION OF DANIEL'S ABOMINATION IS THE TIME TO GET PACKING
      15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
      by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
      understand:)
      16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
      17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out
      of his house:
      18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his
      clothes.

      THE ABOMINATION WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE SAINTS
      19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
      those days!
      20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
      sabbath day:
      21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
      beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
      saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

      THERE WILL BE NO EARTHLY DELIVERER EXCEPT DECEIVERS
      23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
      believe it not.
      24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
      shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
      shall deceive the very elect.
      25 Behold, I have told you before.

      THE RESCUE WILL COME FROM ABOVE
      26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert;
      go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
      27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
      the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
      28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
      together.
      29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
      darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
      fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [per Daniel] in
      heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
      see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
      glory.
      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
      they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
      of heaven to the other.

      SO THE SIGNS ARE RELIABLE INDICATORS OF THE LATE HOUR
      32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
      and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
      near, even at the doors.

      ISTM that the question is whether the descriptions in Paul and John
      match that of Daniel.

      Here are some more parallels.

      Daniel's abomination will prevail against the saints mightily and shall
      exalt himself above all gods:

      Dan 11:
      35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
      purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it
      is yet for a time appointed [ewv kairou perav oti eti eiv kairon].
      36 And the king [o basileus] shall do according to his will; and he
      shall exalt himself [uqwyhsetai], and magnify himself above every god
      [megalunyhsetai epi panta yeon], and shall speak marvellous things
      [lalhsei uperogka] against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the
      indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

      So in Matthew:

      Matt 24:
      19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
      those days!
      20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
      sabbath day:
      21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
      beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
      saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

      So in Revelation:

      Rev 13:
      7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to
      overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues,
      and nations.
      8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are
      not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of
      the world.

      So Paul:

      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
      or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
      shewing himself that he is God.
      ...
      2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that
      perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might
      be saved.

      <Jeff>
      >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
      ANTIXRISTOS,

      <Bill>
      Unless John is alluding to Daniel. ISTM that he is.

      <Jeff>
      >>it is -- for those with understanding

      <Bill>
      So says Daniel:

      Da 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
      people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
      Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
      yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by
      spoil, many days.
      Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the
      wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked [ANOMIOI] shall
      understand; but the wise shall understand [nohmones].

      Paul seems to have in mind the matter that was "shut up until the end"
      here:

      2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery [MUSTHRION] of iniquity doth already work:
      only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

      And Revealation:

      Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding [NOUS] count
      the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number
      is Six hundred threescore and six.

      1 John also avows the understanding:

      1 John 2:
      20 But ye have an unction [XRISMA] from the Holy One, and ye know
      [recognize] all things.
      21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
      **because ye know it**, and that no lie is of the truth.
      22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is
      antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
      23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he
      that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
      24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the
      beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain
      in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
      25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
      26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce
      you.
      27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and
      **ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing
      teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it
      hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

      So the stream of "understanding" runs thick from Dan.

      <Jeff>
      >>(and quite contrary to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those
      who were urging the the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the
      fall, not the deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late
      hour, let alone the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

      <Bill>
      Matthew says that there would be **many wars** before the end. The
      indicator of the end was the appearance of Dan's abomination.

      Paul also forbids imagining an imminent or realized end apart from the
      indicator of the appearance of Daniel's abomination:

      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
      come, except there come a [the] falling away [hO APOSTASIS] first, and
      that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      The definite article before APOSTASIS indicates that he is referring to
      a particular departure:

      Dan 11:
      32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by
      flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and
      do exploits.

      Paul expands on this to show that the believer is not among those swept
      away by the deceipt:

      2 Thes 2:
      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
      with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
      his coming:
      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
      and signs and lying wonders,
      10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
      because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be
      saved.
      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
      should believe a lie:
      12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
      pleasure in unrighteousness.
      13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren
      beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to
      salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
      14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory
      of our Lord Jesus Christ.
      15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye
      have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

      <Jeff>
      >>I would be very grateful if you'd take into account the context in
      which the the evidence you adduce for your views appears before you make
      any further claims about what this evidence says, let alone that it says
      the same thing as the
      author of the Johannines is allegedly saying about the ANTIXRISTOS.
      Proof texting is not exegesis. It is straight jacketing the "evidence"
      into a predetermined conclusion.

      <Bill>
      The differing contexts are different hands upon the same Daniel
      "elephant." While the context is important, the common referent is
      fundamental.

      <Jeff>
      >>And may I request that if you are going to transliterate the Greek of
      the texts you appeal to, you follow the transliteration scheme that is
      listed in the protocols and that List Members are supposed to employ?
      You are aware of this scheme, aren't you?

      <Bill>
      I use the OnlineBible for quoted text. I hope that this will be
      satisfactory as I have an ailment that makes it painful to type.

      Bill Ross
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B
      Message 2 of 11 , May 29 4:48 PM
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        Bill Ross wrote:

        > <Bill>
        > > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
        > >
        > > Matt 24:
        > > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
        > > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
        > > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
        > > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:
        >
        > <Jeffrey>
        > >>No, he doesn't.
        >
        > <Bill>
        > What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
        > between verse 15 and verse 16? None?
        >
        > Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
        > To the appearance being an indicator of the end?
        >

        In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication
        that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears,
        namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem
        as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

        More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio
        principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE
        END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense. So
        too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis
        named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have
        shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of
        the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the
        language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify
        their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The
        Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God
        called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the
        EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's
        way for his people.

        Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is
        proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual
        exegesis and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in
        its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on
        the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of
        this in all of your posts), I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

        JG
        --

        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
        Chicago, IL 60626

        jgibson000@...
      • Bill Ross
        ... ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue: Dan 11: 1b ...and ***there shall
        Message 3 of 11 , May 29 8:16 PM
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          <Jeff>
          >>...The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears, namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

          <Bill>
          ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue:

          Dan 11:
          1b ...and ***there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation*** even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
          2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [aiscunhn].
          3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

          So also Paul:

          2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [PAROUSIAS]:

          1 John 2:28 ΒΆ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him [aiscunywmen ap autou] at his coming [PAROUSIA].

          Isn't this Matt's perspective as well?

          15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
          16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
          ...
          21 For then shall be great tribulation, **such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be**.
          22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
          ...
          26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
          27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
          29 **Immediately after the tribulation of those days** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Luke does not see this discussion as demise but rescue:

          Luke 21:
          24 And they **shall fall by the edge of the sword [pesountai stomati macairhs]**, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
          25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
          26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
          27 And then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
          28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption [rescue] draweth nigh.
          29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
          30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
          31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

          ("Shall fall by the edge of the sword" and "led away captive" is from Daniel, as well as a period of time:

          Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall [Heb=KASHAL] by the sword [KHEREB], and by flame, by captivity [SHABIY], and by spoil, many days [YOM].

          So Paul sees a rescue from above:

          1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

          <Jeff>
          >>More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense.

          <Bill>
          The context is ambiguous but the reference to Daniel and the parousia are unavoidable:

          Matt 24:30 And then shall appear [fanhsetai] the sign of the son of man in [EN] heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see [opsontai] the Son of man coming in [EPI] the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [meta dunamews kai doxhs pollhs].

          <Jeff>
          >>So too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's way for his people.

          <Bill>
          Jeff, Caird and Wright have erected a straw man - there is no "end of the space time universe" in scripture. It is the parousia that is unmistakably in view, both in Daniel and in Matthew (and Luke and Paul and Revelation).

          What is correct is that it is plain that human beings are not going to seize the Promised Land by force but rather God that will give the victory by Jesus Christ.

          In fact, this is what 1 Cor 15:58 really says (contra most commentaries):

          1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [idiom="humans"] cannot [ou dunatai=is not powerful enough] inherit [klhronomhsai="seize" or "take over"] the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

          Rather, it will be a miraculous, divinely empowered conquest:

          51 Behold, I shew you a mystery [expouding a previously unintelligible saying]; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the call to the battle]: for the trumpet [the call to the battle] shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
          54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the [previously unintelligible] saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
          55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
          56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
          57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory [in the conquest of the promised land] through our Lord Jesus Christ.

          <Jeff>
          >>Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual exegesis

          <Bill>
          I have yet to see an example of your hermeneutic, other than dropping names of commentators!

          <Jeff>
          >>and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of this in all of your posts),

          <Bill>
          I read the commentaries but find it more helpful to see the connections with the scriptures the NT authors drew upon. I like my hermeneutic better than yours. Sorry to disappoint.

          <Jeff>
          >>I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

          <Bill>
          Perhaps you could just answer briefly these question (yes or no):

          * did 1 John expect his readers to be expecting the appearance of an antichrist?
          * did he see the appearance as indicative of the last hour?
          * is there a Jewish/christian tradition extant that might have led him to see things this way?

          My answer is yes to all 3. The tradition seems to be Daniel's abomination, Matthew's, Luke's and Paul's.

          Bill Ross
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