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RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's

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  • Bill Ross
    ... John: * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular] shall come * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the
    Message 1 of 11 , May 29, 2003
      <James>
      >>...The fact that 1 John uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he

      >>does not have in mind a single figure, derived from Daniel or
      >>elsewhere, who sets himself up as God in the Temple.

      <Bill>
      John:

      * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular]
      shall come
      * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the "last hour" or
      "finale"
      * informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
      operational in the lost community [KOSMOS]

      (ISV) Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that **an
      antichrist [anticristos = singular]** is coming [ercetai = singular], so
      now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know [oyen
      ginwskomen] it is the last hour.

      (YLT) and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh
      having come, of God it is not; and this is that of **the** antichrist
      [kai touto estin to tou anticristou = singular, articular], which ye
      heard that it doth come [ercetai = singular, present], and now in the
      world it is already [kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh].

      Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:

      Matt 24:
      15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [bdelugma
      ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
      place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in
      Judaea flee into the mountains**:

      Does this tradition have any parallels in Daniel?

      YLT
      Dan 12:7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who is upon the waters of
      the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the
      heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a
      time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the
      power of the holy people, finished [Heb=KALAH, Gk=gnwsontai] are all
      these.'
      Dan 12:8 And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my
      lord, what is the latter end of these?'
      Dan 12:9 And he saith, `Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed are the
      things till the time of the end [Gk=ews kairou peras];
      Dan 12:10 Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined
      are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked
      understand, and those acting wisely do understand;
      Dan 12:11 and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual
      sacrifice , and to the giving out of the desolating abomination [tou
      doyhnai bdelugma erhmwsews], are days a thousand, two hundred, and
      ninety.
      Dan 12:12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth
      come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five.
      Dan 12:13 And thou, go on to the end, then thou dost rest, and dost
      stand in thy lot at the end of the days [eis anaplhrwsin].'

      Paul said that they had heard of the "human without principle":

      2Th 2:5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I
      said to you [tauta elegon umin]?
      2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being
      revealed in his own time,

      Paul had also said that the appearance of the son of perdition was an
      indicator of the lateness of the hour:

      2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
      come, except there come [elyh] a falling away [h apostasia=the
      departure, the deviation] first, and that man of sin [o anyrwpos ths
      anomias=the human without principle] be revealed, the son [hUIOS] of
      perdition;

      Paul also informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
      operational:

      YLT
      2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work [to gar
      musthrion hdh energeitai ths anomias], only he who is keeping down now
      will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
      2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall
      consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
      manifestation of his presence,

      This tradition is either profoundly coincidental or they have a common
      denominator - Daniel's "abomination."

      So, John, like Matthew and Paul, sees a *singular* antichrist, who's
      appearance is an indicator of the end, of which they have been informed,
      and who is already operational in the first century, and will endure
      until the coming of Christ.

      The plural refers to those who are "of the antichrist" -
      "antichristians" if you please:

      1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the
      flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist,
      which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

      ...kai touto estin **to tou anticristou** o akhkoate oti ercetai kai nun
      en tw kosmw estin hdh

      Bill Ross
    • Bill Ross
      ... traits: a) They were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the Johannine church or community at the time of writing (this means they
      Message 2 of 11 , May 29, 2003
        <Paul>
        >>I agree, James, the antichristoi of 1 and 2 John bear the following
        traits:
        a) "They" were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the
        Johannine church or community at the time of writing (this means they
        had been considered "fellow Christians" before that time).

        <Bill>
        How would you translate/understand "h apostasia" in this verse? [v=final
        sigma]:

        2Thess 2:
        3 mh tiv umav exapathsh kata mhdena tropon oti **ean mh elyh h
        apostasia prwton** kai apokalufyh o anyrwpov thv anomiav o uiov thv
        apwleiav

        The only other NT occurence is here:

        Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews
        which are among the Gentiles to forsake <646> Moses, saying that they
        ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the
        customs.

        Might this not indicate that Paul expected a departure from the faith?
        See also:

        Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves
        enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

        And what do you make of the singulars in 1 John, and those [plural]
        identified as being "of the antichrist [singular]"?

        <Paul>
        >>b) They therefore were considered schismatics who never authentically
        embraced the Johannine ethos or convictions, and the Elder is seeking to
        explain their lapse (and the false doctrine that precipitated it).

        <Bill>
        ISTM that these of the antichrist claimed to be Johanine. It is for this
        reason that 1 John posits evidence that they were not genuinely
        Johanine:

        1 John 2:19 ex hmwn exhlyan [geographically] all ouk hsan ex hmwn
        [representitavely] ei gar ex hmwn [representitavely] hsan memenhkeisan
        [doctrinally] an mey hmwn all ina fanerwywsin oti ouk eisin pantes
        [every one claiming to be Johanine] ex hmwn [representitavely]

        <Paul>
        >>c) The content of their interests appears to have centered around
        adherence to "the Father"--denying that Jesus was the Christ--an obvious
        concern of local Jewish communities that might have been challenging the
        elevation of "the Son" as a ditheistic aberation.

        <Bill>
        1 John never asserts Christ's divinity but rather insists on his
        humanity. The prologue is a strong affirmation of the concrete nature of
        Christ:

        1 John 1:
        1 o hn ap archv o akhkoamen o ewrakamen toiv ofyalmoiv hmwn o
        eyeasameya kai ai ceirev hmwn eqhlafhsan peri tou logou thv zwhv
        2 kai h zwh efanerwyh kai ewrakamen kai marturoumen kai apaggellomen
        umin thn zwhn thn aiwnion htiv hn prov ton patera kai efanerwyh hmin
        3 o ewrakamen kai akhkoamen apaggellomen kai umin ina kai umeiv
        koinwnian echte mey hmwn kai h koinwnia de h hmetera meta tou patrov kai
        meta tou uiou autou ihsou cristou

        The letter specifically identifies antichrist as that which presents
        Jesus as other than:

        * composed of flesh [en sarki elhluyota, ercomenon en sarki]
        * the *son of* God [ihsous [cristos] estin o uios tou yeou] (which is a
        royal designation)

        These have:

        * gone too far [pav o proagwn]
        * have not limited themselves to Christ's teaching [kai mh menwn en th
        didach tou cristou]

        The "amoral" - "once saved always saved" concept is clearly in view as
        well:

        1 John 1:
        6 ean eipwmen oti koinwnian ecomen met autou [claim to be genuine
        Johanine christians] kai en tw skotei peripatwmen qeudomeya kai ou
        poioumen thn alhyeian
        7 ean de en tw fwti peripatwmen wv autov estin en tw fwti koinwnian
        ecomen met allhlwn kai to aima ihsou tou uiou autou kayarizei hmav apo
        pashv amartiav
        8 ean eipwmen oti amartian ouk ecomen eautouv planwmen kai h alhyeia
        ouk estin en hmin
        9 ean omologwmen tav amartiav hmwn pistov estin kai dikaiov ina afh
        hmin tav amartiav kai kayarish hmav apo pashv adikiav
        10 ean eipwmen oti ouc hmarthkamen qeusthn poioumen auton kai o logov
        autou ouk estin en hmin

        1 John 2:
        3 kai en toutw ginwskomen oti egnwkamen auton ean tav entolav autou
        thrwmen
        4 o legwn oti egnwka auton kai tav entolav autou mh thrwn qeusthv estin
        kai en toutw h alhyeia ouk estin
        5 ov d an thrh autou ton logon alhywv en toutw h agaph tou yeou
        teteleiwtai en toutw ginwskomen oti en autw esmen
        6 o legwn en autw menein ofeilei kaywv ekeinov periepathsen kai autov
        peripatein

        <Paul>
        >>d) The group (in my view) therefore, appears to have departed in order
        to assimilate back into the local Jewish community, where monotheism and
        other Jewish measures of orthodoxy were more assured, and the Elder is
        presented as seekng to stave off further defections.

        <Bill>
        There are zero assertions of divinity and zero attacks on Torah. If
        anything, the assertions in 1 John are much more palatable to Judaism
        than what might be construed from the gospel of John. Ie: Jesus is a
        fleshly Christ, and obedience to God is enjoined.

        <Paul>
        >>e) The way the Elder does this is to emphasize that receiving the Son
        means receiving the Father, but denying the Son (who represents the
        Father unequivocally) results in the forfeiture of the Father--the very
        interest of the schismatics.

        <Bill>
        John makes no mention of a divine "Son" (per your capital letter). He
        hammers hard on his humanity. He identifies him as an anointed king
        (Christ/son of God) and insists that all of the believers are sons of
        God and advocates imitation of Christ now and the expectation to be like
        Christ in the eschaton, for when we see him, we will see a man of flesh:

        1Jo 3:2 agaphtoi nun tekna yeou esmen kai oupw efanerwyh ti esomeya
        oidamen oti ean fanerwyh omoioi autw esomeya oti oqomeya auton kaywv
        estin

        <Paul>
        >>The antichristoi of I John 4:1-3 and 2 John 7, however, bear other
        traits and were not the same group:
        a) "They" were also plural, but rather than a past threat, this one
        seems to be impending--on the doorstep of the future.

        <Bill>
        Do you think the elder had any OT basis for linking the appearance of
        those of the antichrist with the arrival of the end game? Who is the
        "we" that recognizes that it is the end game by this appearance?

        1Jo 2:18 paidia escath wra estin kai kaywv hkousate oti anticristov
        ercetai kai nun anticristoi polloi gegonasin oyen ginwskomen [who is
        this we? Does it not include his hearers? Why?] oti escath wra estin

        <Paul>
        >>...c) The content of their teachings was to be measured by the degree
        to which they denied the fleshly humanity of Jesus (not a rejection of
        his Messiahship, but his suffering humanity), and this becomes the
        litmus test whereby the Elder emboldens his audiences to judge the
        authenticity of traveling preachers.

        <Bill>
        ...which would seem to argue against these of antichrist being Jews. Ie:
        It would be non-Jewish to assert the divinity of Christ, but not the
        humanity. It would be non-Jewish to advocate that the activities done in
        the flesh were irrelevant to being righteous, but not obeying divine
        command. Ie: these folks are not erring toward Judaism that I can see by
        the correctives issued by the elder.

        <Paul>
        >>d) The teaching likely involved aspects of assimilation most
        attractive to Gentile Christians: either showing public reverence in the
        imperial cult during the reign of Domitian (the crisis alluded to in
        Revelation 13 and elsewhere in the Johannine Apocalypse) or the refusal
        to leave behind any number of pagan ethical practices.

        <Bill>
        To show that Domitian was not divine, would the elder strongly assert
        the humanity of Jesus? Would he insist on the believers being sons of
        God?

        These foes are claiming things/denying things about Christ, not the
        emperor of Rome that I can tell. I see no reference to pagan ethics but
        rather to a false christology and false christian ethic.

        <Paul>
        >>e) To offset these threats, the Elder advises people to be willing to
        suffer for their faith and to be mindful of the suffering and death of
        the Lord as the compelling example.

        <Bill>
        Where?

        <Paul>
        >>In that sense, they should be distinguished from the Thessalonian "man
        of lawlessness" and the Apocalyptic beasts.

        <Bill>
        Sorry, Paul, I don't follow...

        Bill Ross
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... No, he doesn t. Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an) ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary to
        Message 3 of 11 , May 29, 2003
          Bill Ross wrote:

          > <James>
          > >>...The fact that 1 John uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he
          >
          > >>does not have in mind a single figure, derived from Daniel or
          > >>elsewhere, who sets himself up as God in the Temple.
          >
          > <Bill>
          > John:
          >
          > * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular]
          > shall come
          > * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the "last hour" or
          > "finale"
          > * informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
          > operational in the lost community [KOSMOS]
          >
          > (ISV) Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that **an
          > antichrist [anticristos = singular]** is coming [ercetai = singular], so
          > now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know [oyen
          > ginwskomen] it is the last hour.
          >
          > (YLT) and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh
          > having come, of God it is not; and this is that of **the** antichrist
          > [kai touto estin to tou anticristou = singular, articular], which ye
          > heard that it doth come [ercetai = singular, present], and now in the
          > world it is already [kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh].
          >
          > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
          >
          > Matt 24:
          > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [bdelugma
          > ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
          > place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in
          > Judaea flee into the mountains**:

          No, he doesn't. Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
          ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary to what
          Matthew implies was being claimed by those who were urging the the elect not to
          flee Jerusalem), the signal of the fall, not the deliverance, of the Holy City,
          **not** of the last/late hour, let alone the "hour" that the author of the
          Johannines speaks of.

          I would be very grateful if you'd take into account the context in which the the
          evidence you adduce for your views appears before you make any further claims
          about what this evidence says, let alone that it says the same thing as the
          author of the Johannines is allegedly saying about the ANTIXRISTOS. Proof
          texting is not exegesis. It is straight jacketing the "evidence" into a
          predetermined conclusion.

          And may I request that if you are going to transliterate the Greek of the texts
          you appeal to, you follow the transliteration scheme that is listed in the
          protocols and that List Members are supposed to employ?

          You are aware of this scheme, aren't you?

          JG
          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...
        • Bill Ross
          ... ... What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view between verse 15 and verse 16? None? Are you objecting to
          Message 4 of 11 , May 29, 2003
            <Bill>
            > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
            >
            > Matt 24:
            > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
            > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
            > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
            > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:

            <Jeffrey>
            >>No, he doesn't.

            <Bill>
            What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
            between verse 15 and verse 16? None?

            Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
            To the appearance being an indicator of the end?

            Matt 24:
            32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
            and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
            33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
            near, even at the doors.

            <Jeff>
            >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
            ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary
            to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those who were urging the
            the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the fall, not the
            deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late hour, let alone
            the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

            <Bill>
            I'm not up for unpacking all of Matt 24 right now, but suffice it to say
            that he clearly intends to dissuade his readers from expecting the
            kingdom imminently, but rather watching for the appropriate indicators -
            per Daniel:

            FALSE MESSIAHS DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
            4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
            you.
            5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall
            deceive many.

            WARS, FAMINES, PESTILENCES AND EARTHQUAKES DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
            6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
            troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not
            yet.
            7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
            and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers
            places.
            8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

            PERSECUTION DOES NOT SIGNAL THE END
            9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:
            and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
            10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and
            shall hate one another.
            11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
            12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
            13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

            THE GOSPEL WILL REACH THE WHOLE WORLD BEFORE THE END
            14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
            for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

            THE INTRODUCTION OF DANIEL'S ABOMINATION IS THE TIME TO GET PACKING
            15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
            by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
            understand:)
            16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
            17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out
            of his house:
            18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his
            clothes.

            THE ABOMINATION WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE SAINTS
            19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
            those days!
            20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
            sabbath day:
            21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
            beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
            22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
            saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

            THERE WILL BE NO EARTHLY DELIVERER EXCEPT DECEIVERS
            23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
            believe it not.
            24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
            shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
            shall deceive the very elect.
            25 Behold, I have told you before.

            THE RESCUE WILL COME FROM ABOVE
            26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert;
            go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
            27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
            the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
            28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
            together.
            29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
            darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
            fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
            30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [per Daniel] in
            heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
            see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
            glory.
            31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
            they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
            of heaven to the other.

            SO THE SIGNS ARE RELIABLE INDICATORS OF THE LATE HOUR
            32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
            and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
            33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
            near, even at the doors.

            ISTM that the question is whether the descriptions in Paul and John
            match that of Daniel.

            Here are some more parallels.

            Daniel's abomination will prevail against the saints mightily and shall
            exalt himself above all gods:

            Dan 11:
            35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
            purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it
            is yet for a time appointed [ewv kairou perav oti eti eiv kairon].
            36 And the king [o basileus] shall do according to his will; and he
            shall exalt himself [uqwyhsetai], and magnify himself above every god
            [megalunyhsetai epi panta yeon], and shall speak marvellous things
            [lalhsei uperogka] against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the
            indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

            So in Matthew:

            Matt 24:
            19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
            those days!
            20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
            sabbath day:
            21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
            beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
            22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
            saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

            So in Revelation:

            Rev 13:
            7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to
            overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues,
            and nations.
            8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are
            not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of
            the world.

            So Paul:

            2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
            or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
            shewing himself that he is God.
            ...
            2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that
            perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might
            be saved.

            <Jeff>
            >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
            ANTIXRISTOS,

            <Bill>
            Unless John is alluding to Daniel. ISTM that he is.

            <Jeff>
            >>it is -- for those with understanding

            <Bill>
            So says Daniel:

            Da 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
            people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
            Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
            yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by
            spoil, many days.
            Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the
            wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked [ANOMIOI] shall
            understand; but the wise shall understand [nohmones].

            Paul seems to have in mind the matter that was "shut up until the end"
            here:

            2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery [MUSTHRION] of iniquity doth already work:
            only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

            And Revealation:

            Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding [NOUS] count
            the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number
            is Six hundred threescore and six.

            1 John also avows the understanding:

            1 John 2:
            20 But ye have an unction [XRISMA] from the Holy One, and ye know
            [recognize] all things.
            21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
            **because ye know it**, and that no lie is of the truth.
            22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is
            antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
            23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he
            that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
            24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the
            beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain
            in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
            25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
            26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce
            you.
            27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and
            **ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing
            teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it
            hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

            So the stream of "understanding" runs thick from Dan.

            <Jeff>
            >>(and quite contrary to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those
            who were urging the the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the
            fall, not the deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late
            hour, let alone the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

            <Bill>
            Matthew says that there would be **many wars** before the end. The
            indicator of the end was the appearance of Dan's abomination.

            Paul also forbids imagining an imminent or realized end apart from the
            indicator of the appearance of Daniel's abomination:

            2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
            come, except there come a [the] falling away [hO APOSTASIS] first, and
            that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

            The definite article before APOSTASIS indicates that he is referring to
            a particular departure:

            Dan 11:
            32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by
            flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and
            do exploits.

            Paul expands on this to show that the believer is not among those swept
            away by the deceipt:

            2 Thes 2:
            8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
            with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
            his coming:
            9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
            and signs and lying wonders,
            10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
            because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be
            saved.
            11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
            should believe a lie:
            12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
            pleasure in unrighteousness.
            13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren
            beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to
            salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
            14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory
            of our Lord Jesus Christ.
            15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye
            have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

            <Jeff>
            >>I would be very grateful if you'd take into account the context in
            which the the evidence you adduce for your views appears before you make
            any further claims about what this evidence says, let alone that it says
            the same thing as the
            author of the Johannines is allegedly saying about the ANTIXRISTOS.
            Proof texting is not exegesis. It is straight jacketing the "evidence"
            into a predetermined conclusion.

            <Bill>
            The differing contexts are different hands upon the same Daniel
            "elephant." While the context is important, the common referent is
            fundamental.

            <Jeff>
            >>And may I request that if you are going to transliterate the Greek of
            the texts you appeal to, you follow the transliteration scheme that is
            listed in the protocols and that List Members are supposed to employ?
            You are aware of this scheme, aren't you?

            <Bill>
            I use the OnlineBible for quoted text. I hope that this will be
            satisfactory as I have an ailment that makes it painful to type.

            Bill Ross
          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B
            Message 5 of 11 , May 29, 2003
              Bill Ross wrote:

              > <Bill>
              > > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
              > >
              > > Matt 24:
              > > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
              > > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
              > > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
              > > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:
              >
              > <Jeffrey>
              > >>No, he doesn't.
              >
              > <Bill>
              > What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
              > between verse 15 and verse 16? None?
              >
              > Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
              > To the appearance being an indicator of the end?
              >

              In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication
              that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears,
              namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem
              as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

              More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio
              principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE
              END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense. So
              too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis
              named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have
              shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of
              the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the
              language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify
              their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The
              Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God
              called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the
              EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's
              way for his people.

              Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is
              proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual
              exegesis and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in
              its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on
              the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of
              this in all of your posts), I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

              JG
              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...
            • Bill Ross
              ... ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue: Dan 11: 1b ...and ***there shall
              Message 6 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                <Jeff>
                >>...The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears, namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

                <Bill>
                ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue:

                Dan 11:
                1b ...and ***there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation*** even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
                2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [aiscunhn].
                3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

                So also Paul:

                2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [PAROUSIAS]:

                1 John 2:28 ΒΆ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him [aiscunywmen ap autou] at his coming [PAROUSIA].

                Isn't this Matt's perspective as well?

                15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
                16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
                ...
                21 For then shall be great tribulation, **such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be**.
                22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                ...
                26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
                27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
                29 **Immediately after the tribulation of those days** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                Luke does not see this discussion as demise but rescue:

                Luke 21:
                24 And they **shall fall by the edge of the sword [pesountai stomati macairhs]**, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
                25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
                26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
                27 And then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
                28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption [rescue] draweth nigh.
                29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
                30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
                31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

                ("Shall fall by the edge of the sword" and "led away captive" is from Daniel, as well as a period of time:

                Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall [Heb=KASHAL] by the sword [KHEREB], and by flame, by captivity [SHABIY], and by spoil, many days [YOM].

                So Paul sees a rescue from above:

                1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

                <Jeff>
                >>More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense.

                <Bill>
                The context is ambiguous but the reference to Daniel and the parousia are unavoidable:

                Matt 24:30 And then shall appear [fanhsetai] the sign of the son of man in [EN] heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see [opsontai] the Son of man coming in [EPI] the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [meta dunamews kai doxhs pollhs].

                <Jeff>
                >>So too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's way for his people.

                <Bill>
                Jeff, Caird and Wright have erected a straw man - there is no "end of the space time universe" in scripture. It is the parousia that is unmistakably in view, both in Daniel and in Matthew (and Luke and Paul and Revelation).

                What is correct is that it is plain that human beings are not going to seize the Promised Land by force but rather God that will give the victory by Jesus Christ.

                In fact, this is what 1 Cor 15:58 really says (contra most commentaries):

                1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [idiom="humans"] cannot [ou dunatai=is not powerful enough] inherit [klhronomhsai="seize" or "take over"] the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                Rather, it will be a miraculous, divinely empowered conquest:

                51 Behold, I shew you a mystery [expouding a previously unintelligible saying]; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the call to the battle]: for the trumpet [the call to the battle] shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the [previously unintelligible] saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
                55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
                56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
                57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory [in the conquest of the promised land] through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                <Jeff>
                >>Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual exegesis

                <Bill>
                I have yet to see an example of your hermeneutic, other than dropping names of commentators!

                <Jeff>
                >>and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of this in all of your posts),

                <Bill>
                I read the commentaries but find it more helpful to see the connections with the scriptures the NT authors drew upon. I like my hermeneutic better than yours. Sorry to disappoint.

                <Jeff>
                >>I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

                <Bill>
                Perhaps you could just answer briefly these question (yes or no):

                * did 1 John expect his readers to be expecting the appearance of an antichrist?
                * did he see the appearance as indicative of the last hour?
                * is there a Jewish/christian tradition extant that might have led him to see things this way?

                My answer is yes to all 3. The tradition seems to be Daniel's abomination, Matthew's, Luke's and Paul's.

                Bill Ross
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