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RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's

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  • Bill Ross
    ... raised. Can you provide your reasons for assuming as you do that the mystery of iniquity is not only the antichrist, but that it is the
    Message 1 of 11 , May 26, 2003
      <Jeffrey>
      >>I note with interest that this is not an answer to the question
      raised. Can you provide your reasons for assuming as you do that the
      "mystery of iniquity" is not only the antichrist, but that it is the
      antichrist that the author of 1 John has in view? What is your warrant
      for reading 1 John through Paul?

      <Bill>
      I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.

      When Paul speaks of Christ, I assume it is the one that John speaks of.
      So also antichrist. If the tradition sprang up independently, it is
      strkinging similar.

      As I understand the terms, a "false Christ" would be someone like Zvi,
      who claims to be the messiah but is an imposter. An "antichrist" is a
      false representation of Jesus Christ. Ie:

      PSEUDO
      Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and
      shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
      they shall deceive the very elect.

      ANTI
      1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He
      is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
      1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth
      that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
      1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come
      in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
      whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in
      the world.
      2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not
      that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an
      antichrist.

      So also Paul's "man of sin" is worshipped as God:

      3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
      except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
      the son of perdition;
      4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
      that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
      shewing himself that he is God.

      Notice the similarity:

      5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
      things?
      6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his
      time.
      7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
      letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
      with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
      his coming:
      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
      and signs and lying wonders,

      Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,
      and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first
      beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
      Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast,
      that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as
      would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

      Paul claims nothing 1 John does not claim:

      2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions
      which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

      <Jeffrey>
      >>And a side note -- I believe it is general List policy that one should
      avoid doing exegesis on the basis of an English translation of the texts
      you are trying to unpack, especially the KJV. I'd be grateful,
      especially when you are trying to make the case that a Pauline idea and
      a Johannine idea are one and the same, that you argue on the basis of
      the Greek text.

      <Bill>
      I certainly will when that is necessary. In more general situations,
      English seems preferable yes?

      Bill Ross
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      In response to my: ... But where does Paul actually use the term that John uses and that gets translated as antichrist ? ... Apart from the fact that it may
      Message 2 of 11 , May 26, 2003
        In response to my:

        Bill Ross wrote:

        > <Jeffrey>
        > >>I note with interest that this is not an answer to the question
        > raised. Can you provide your reasons for assuming as you do that the
        > "mystery of iniquity" is not only the antichrist, but that it is the
        > antichrist that the author of 1 John has in view? What is your warrant
        > for reading 1 John through Paul?
        >
        > <Bill>
        > I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.
        >
        > When Paul speaks of Christ, I assume it is the one that John speaks of.
        > So also antichrist. If the tradition sprang up independently, it is
        > strkinging similar.

        But where does Paul actually use the term that John uses and that gets
        translated as "antichrist"?

        > As I understand the terms, a "false Christ" would be someone like Zvi,
        > who claims to be the messiah but is an imposter. An "antichrist" is a
        > false representation of Jesus Christ. Ie:
        >
        > PSEUDO
        > Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and
        > shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
        > they shall deceive the very elect.
        >

        Apart from the fact that it may be illegitimate to use Matthew to interpret the
        Johannine epistles, YEUDOXRISTOS is not the same as ANTIXRISTOS.

        >
        > Paul claims nothing 1 John does not claim:

        Even if this were true (it's not), this isn't the issue. The issue is whether
        John claims what Paul claims. And you have not yet shown that the meaning of the
        antichrist in the Johannines (someone from within the community) has any
        relation to the force that originates from outside the community that Paul
        speaks of when he refers to MUSTHRION THS ANOMIAS.

        And as to your comment in response to my

        > And a side note -- I believe it is general List policy that one should avoid
        > doing exegesis on the basis of an English translation of the texts
        > you are trying to unpack, especially the KJV. I'd be grateful,
        > especially when you are trying to make the case that a Pauline idea and
        > a Johannine idea are one and the same, that you argue on the basis of
        > the Greek text.
        >

        namely, that

        > I certainly will when that is necessary. In more general situations,
        > English seems preferable yes?
        >

        My reply is this: No it's not. Not when the English is archaic and especially
        when it leads you, as it seems to have done, to see similarities between and
        among texts that simply are not there.

        JG

        >
        > Bill Ross
        >
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      • Bill Ross
        ... translated as antichrist ? The term is not used by Paul, while the concept is. For Paul, Christ is seated at God s right hand in the
        Message 3 of 11 , May 27, 2003
          <Jeffrey>
          >>But where does Paul actually use the term that John uses and that gets
          translated as "antichrist"?

          <Bill>
          The term is not used by Paul, while the concept is.

          For Paul, Christ is seated at God's right hand in the heavenlies:

          Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather,
          that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also
          maketh [priestly] intercession for us.
          Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,
          and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
          Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are
          above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

          Ie: in God's temple.

          But he is not God himself, and is not worshipped as God:

          1 Cor 15:
          24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
          God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
          authority and power.
          25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
          26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
          27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all
          things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did
          put all things under him.
          28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son
          also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God
          may be all in all.

          The "man of sin" and "son of perdition" and "antichrist" are original
          terms referring to someone deriving ultimately from Daniel:

          Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
          spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso
          readeth, let him understand:)

          Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
          by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that
          readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the
          mountains:

          Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
          sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
          shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

          Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken
          away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
          thousand two hundred and ninety days.

          Can we agree that Matthew and Mark have this in mind?

          Can we agree that Paul has this in mind?

          Can we agree that John has this in mind?

          John does not claim to have invented the idea of antichrist:

          1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and ***as ye have
          heard*** that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
          antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
          1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
          come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
          ***whereof ye have heard that it should come***; and even now already is
          it in the world.

          If so, the "abomination" is characterized by both Paul and John as being
          active in the world already:

          1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
          come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
          whereof ye have heard that it should come; and ***even now already is it
          in the world***.

          2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity ***doth already work***: only
          he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

          > As I understand the terms, a "false Christ" would be someone like Zvi,

          > who claims to be the messiah but is an imposter. An "antichrist" is a
          > false representation of Jesus Christ. Ie:
          >
          > PSEUDO
          > Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and

          > shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
          > possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
          >

          <Jeffrey>
          >>Apart from the fact that it may be illegitimate to use Matthew to
          interpret the Johannine epistles, YEUDOXRISTOS is not the same as
          ANTIXRISTOS.

          <Bill>
          That is my point. Please reread the above.

          >
          > Paul claims nothing 1 John does not claim:

          <Jeffrey>
          >>...The issue is whether John claims what Paul claims. And you have not
          yet shown that the meaning of the antichrist in the Johannines (someone
          from within the community) has any relation to the force that originates
          from outside the community that Paul speaks of when he refers to
          MUSTHRION THS ANOMIAS.

          <Bill>
          As I understand John's use of ANITXRISTOS, those who advocate a false
          representation of Jesus Christ are "of antichrist" - TOU ANTIXRISTOU:

          1 John 4:3 kai pan pneuma o mh omologei ton ihsoun ek tou yeou ouk
          estin ***kai touto estin to tou anticristou*** o akhkoate oti ercetai
          kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh

          ...and refers to these purveyors of a divine Christ as "antichrists."

          <Jeffrey>
          >>...No it's not. Not when the English is archaic and especially when it
          leads you, as it seems to have done, to see similarities between and
          among texts that simply are not there.

          <Bill>
          For the record - I do not hold the KJV as an extremely accurate or
          inspired translation.

          The Greek shows John using a construct that associates false
          representations with "the antichrist."

          The question then is:

          * is there a long standing tradition regarding a worshipped person?
          * is Paul referring to it?
          * is John referring to it?
          * do the gospels refer to it?

          I admit to variations of *terms* but hope you see a commonality of
          tradition source.

          Bill Ross
        • McGrath, James
          1 John 2:18 seems on the one hand to lend some support to your view that Paul, John and others had similar ideas, but in the end it shows that 1 John s term
          Message 4 of 11 , May 27, 2003
            1 John 2:18 seems on the one hand to lend some support to your view that
            Paul, John and others had similar ideas, but in the end it shows that 1
            John's term refers to a rather different concept. The fact that 1 John
            uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he does not have in mind a
            single figure, derived from Daniel or elsewhere, who sets himself up as
            God in the Temple.

            Best regards,

            James


            *****************************
            Dr. James F. McGrath
            Assistant Professor of Religion
            Butler University, Indianapolis
            http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/
            *****************************



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bill Ross [mailto:BillRoss@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:14 AM
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's


            <Jeffrey>
            >>But where does Paul actually use the term that John uses and that gets
            translated as "antichrist"?

            <Bill>
            The term is not used by Paul, while the concept is.

            For Paul, Christ is seated at God's right hand in the heavenlies:

            Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather,
            that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also
            maketh [priestly] intercession for us. Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in
            Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right
            hand in the heavenly places, Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ,
            seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right
            hand of God.

            Ie: in God's temple.

            But he is not God himself, and is not worshipped as God:

            1 Cor 15:
            24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
            God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
            authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
            under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27
            For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things
            are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
            things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
            then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
            under him, that God may be all in all.

            The "man of sin" and "son of perdition" and "antichrist" are original
            terms referring to someone deriving ultimately from Daniel:

            Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
            spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso
            readeth, let him understand:)

            Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
            by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that
            readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the
            mountains:

            Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
            sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
            shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

            Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken
            away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
            thousand two hundred and ninety days.

            Can we agree that Matthew and Mark have this in mind?

            Can we agree that Paul has this in mind?

            Can we agree that John has this in mind?

            John does not claim to have invented the idea of antichrist:

            1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and ***as ye have
            heard*** that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
            antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 4:3 And
            every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
            is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, ***whereof ye have
            heard that it should come***; and even now already is it in the world.

            If so, the "abomination" is characterized by both Paul and John as being
            active in the world already:

            1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
            come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
            whereof ye have heard that it should come; and ***even now already is it
            in the world***.

            2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity ***doth already work***: only
            he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
            [snip]
          • Paul Anderson
            I agree, James, the antichristoi of 1 and 2 John bear the following traits: a) They were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the Johannine
            Message 5 of 11 , May 29, 2003
              I agree, James, the antichristoi of 1 and 2 John bear the following traits:

              a) "They" were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the Johannine church or community at the time of writing (this means they had been considered "fellow Christians" before that time).

              b) They therefore were considered schismatics who never authentically embraced the Johannine ethos or convictions, and the Elder is seeking to explain their lapse (and the false doctrine that precipitated it).

              c) The content of their interests appears to have centered around adherence to "the Father"--denying that Jesus was the Christ--an obvious concern of local Jewish communities that might have been challenging the elevation of "the Son" as a ditheistic aberation.

              d) The group (in my view) therefore, appears to have departed in order to assimilate back into the local Jewish community, where monotheism and other Jewish measures of orthodoxy were more assured, and the Elder is presented as seekng to stave off further defections.

              e) The way the Elder does this is to emphasize that receiving the Son means receiving the Father, but denying the Son (who represents the Father unequivocally) results in the forfeiture of the Father--the very interest of the schismatics.

              The antichristoi of I John 4:1-3 and 2 John 7, however, bear other traits and were not the same group:

              a) "They" were also plural, but rather than a past threat, this one seems to be impending--on the doorstep of the future.

              b) They were not leaving (and therefore were NOT schismatics), but were invasionists, apparently bringing a false doctrine, which the Elder warns his communities about.

              c) The content of their teachings was to be measured by the degree to which they denied the fleshly humanity of Jesus (not a rejection of his Messiahship, but his suffering humanity), and this becomes the litmus test whereby the Elder emboldens his audiences to judge the authenticity of traveling preachers.

              d) The teaching likely involved aspects of assimilation most attractive to Gentile Christians: either showing public reverence in the imperial cult during the reign of Domitian (the crisis alluded to in Revelation 13 and elsewhere in the Johannine Apocalypse) or the refusal to leave behind any number of pagan ethical practices.

              e) To offset these threats, the Elder advises people to be willing to suffer for their faith and to be mindful of the suffering and death of the Lord as the compelling example.

              In that sense, they should be distinguished from the Thessalonian "man of lawlessness" and the Apocalyptic beasts. More of this can be found in the Sitz im Leben essay in Culpepper's Critical Readings of John 6 and elsewhere; I've been developing some of these ideas in a public lecture for several years now entitled "'The Beast,' 'The Antichrist,' and '666'--All Mysteries Explained at One Low Price!".

              Take care,

              Paul Anderson



              -----Original Message-----
              From: McGrath, James [mailto:jfmcgrat@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 4:10 PM
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's


              1 John 2:18 seems on the one hand to lend some support to your view that
              Paul, John and others had similar ideas, but in the end it shows that 1
              John's term refers to a rather different concept. The fact that 1 John
              uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he does not have in mind a
              single figure, derived from Daniel or elsewhere, who sets himself up as
              God in the Temple.

              Best regards,

              James


              *****************************
              Dr. James F. McGrath
              Assistant Professor of Religion
              Butler University, Indianapolis
              http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/
              *****************************



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Bill Ross [mailto:BillRoss@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:14 AM
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 Antichrist and Paul's


              <Jeffrey>
              >>But where does Paul actually use the term that John uses and that gets
              translated as "antichrist"?

              <Bill>
              The term is not used by Paul, while the concept is.

              For Paul, Christ is seated at God's right hand in the heavenlies:

              Ro 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather,
              that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also
              maketh [priestly] intercession for us. Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in
              Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right
              hand in the heavenly places, Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ,
              seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right
              hand of God.

              Ie: in God's temple.

              But he is not God himself, and is not worshipped as God:

              1 Cor 15:
              24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
              God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
              authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
              under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27
              For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things
              are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
              things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,
              then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
              under him, that God may be all in all.

              The "man of sin" and "son of perdition" and "antichrist" are original
              terms referring to someone deriving ultimately from Daniel:

              Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
              spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso
              readeth, let him understand:)

              Mr 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
              by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that
              readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the
              mountains:

              Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the
              sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they
              shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

              Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken
              away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
              thousand two hundred and ninety days.

              Can we agree that Matthew and Mark have this in mind?

              Can we agree that Paul has this in mind?

              Can we agree that John has this in mind?

              John does not claim to have invented the idea of antichrist:

              1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and ***as ye have
              heard*** that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
              antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 4:3 And
              every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
              is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, ***whereof ye have
              heard that it should come***; and even now already is it in the world.

              If so, the "abomination" is characterized by both Paul and John as being
              active in the world already:

              1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
              come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
              whereof ye have heard that it should come; and ***even now already is it
              in the world***.

              2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity ***doth already work***: only
              he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
              [snip]

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            • Bill Ross
              ... John: * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular] shall come * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the
              Message 6 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                <James>
                >>...The fact that 1 John uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he

                >>does not have in mind a single figure, derived from Daniel or
                >>elsewhere, who sets himself up as God in the Temple.

                <Bill>
                John:

                * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular]
                shall come
                * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the "last hour" or
                "finale"
                * informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
                operational in the lost community [KOSMOS]

                (ISV) Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that **an
                antichrist [anticristos = singular]** is coming [ercetai = singular], so
                now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know [oyen
                ginwskomen] it is the last hour.

                (YLT) and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh
                having come, of God it is not; and this is that of **the** antichrist
                [kai touto estin to tou anticristou = singular, articular], which ye
                heard that it doth come [ercetai = singular, present], and now in the
                world it is already [kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh].

                Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:

                Matt 24:
                15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [bdelugma
                ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
                place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in
                Judaea flee into the mountains**:

                Does this tradition have any parallels in Daniel?

                YLT
                Dan 12:7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who is upon the waters of
                the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the
                heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, `After a
                time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the
                power of the holy people, finished [Heb=KALAH, Gk=gnwsontai] are all
                these.'
                Dan 12:8 And I have heard, and I do not understand, and I say, `O my
                lord, what is the latter end of these?'
                Dan 12:9 And he saith, `Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed are the
                things till the time of the end [Gk=ews kairou peras];
                Dan 12:10 Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined
                are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked
                understand, and those acting wisely do understand;
                Dan 12:11 and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual
                sacrifice , and to the giving out of the desolating abomination [tou
                doyhnai bdelugma erhmwsews], are days a thousand, two hundred, and
                ninety.
                Dan 12:12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth
                come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five.
                Dan 12:13 And thou, go on to the end, then thou dost rest, and dost
                stand in thy lot at the end of the days [eis anaplhrwsin].'

                Paul said that they had heard of the "human without principle":

                2Th 2:5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I
                said to you [tauta elegon umin]?
                2Th 2:6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being
                revealed in his own time,

                Paul had also said that the appearance of the son of perdition was an
                indicator of the lateness of the hour:

                2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
                come, except there come [elyh] a falling away [h apostasia=the
                departure, the deviation] first, and that man of sin [o anyrwpos ths
                anomias=the human without principle] be revealed, the son [hUIOS] of
                perdition;

                Paul also informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
                operational:

                YLT
                2Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work [to gar
                musthrion hdh energeitai ths anomias], only he who is keeping down now
                will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
                2Th 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall
                consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
                manifestation of his presence,

                This tradition is either profoundly coincidental or they have a common
                denominator - Daniel's "abomination."

                So, John, like Matthew and Paul, sees a *singular* antichrist, who's
                appearance is an indicator of the end, of which they have been informed,
                and who is already operational in the first century, and will endure
                until the coming of Christ.

                The plural refers to those who are "of the antichrist" -
                "antichristians" if you please:

                1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the
                flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist,
                which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already.

                ...kai touto estin **to tou anticristou** o akhkoate oti ercetai kai nun
                en tw kosmw estin hdh

                Bill Ross
              • Bill Ross
                ... traits: a) They were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the Johannine church or community at the time of writing (this means they
                Message 7 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                  <Paul>
                  >>I agree, James, the antichristoi of 1 and 2 John bear the following
                  traits:
                  a) "They" were plural, a group, that apparently had departed from the
                  Johannine church or community at the time of writing (this means they
                  had been considered "fellow Christians" before that time).

                  <Bill>
                  How would you translate/understand "h apostasia" in this verse? [v=final
                  sigma]:

                  2Thess 2:
                  3 mh tiv umav exapathsh kata mhdena tropon oti **ean mh elyh h
                  apostasia prwton** kai apokalufyh o anyrwpov thv anomiav o uiov thv
                  apwleiav

                  The only other NT occurence is here:

                  Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews
                  which are among the Gentiles to forsake <646> Moses, saying that they
                  ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the
                  customs.

                  Might this not indicate that Paul expected a departure from the faith?
                  See also:

                  Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves
                  enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

                  And what do you make of the singulars in 1 John, and those [plural]
                  identified as being "of the antichrist [singular]"?

                  <Paul>
                  >>b) They therefore were considered schismatics who never authentically
                  embraced the Johannine ethos or convictions, and the Elder is seeking to
                  explain their lapse (and the false doctrine that precipitated it).

                  <Bill>
                  ISTM that these of the antichrist claimed to be Johanine. It is for this
                  reason that 1 John posits evidence that they were not genuinely
                  Johanine:

                  1 John 2:19 ex hmwn exhlyan [geographically] all ouk hsan ex hmwn
                  [representitavely] ei gar ex hmwn [representitavely] hsan memenhkeisan
                  [doctrinally] an mey hmwn all ina fanerwywsin oti ouk eisin pantes
                  [every one claiming to be Johanine] ex hmwn [representitavely]

                  <Paul>
                  >>c) The content of their interests appears to have centered around
                  adherence to "the Father"--denying that Jesus was the Christ--an obvious
                  concern of local Jewish communities that might have been challenging the
                  elevation of "the Son" as a ditheistic aberation.

                  <Bill>
                  1 John never asserts Christ's divinity but rather insists on his
                  humanity. The prologue is a strong affirmation of the concrete nature of
                  Christ:

                  1 John 1:
                  1 o hn ap archv o akhkoamen o ewrakamen toiv ofyalmoiv hmwn o
                  eyeasameya kai ai ceirev hmwn eqhlafhsan peri tou logou thv zwhv
                  2 kai h zwh efanerwyh kai ewrakamen kai marturoumen kai apaggellomen
                  umin thn zwhn thn aiwnion htiv hn prov ton patera kai efanerwyh hmin
                  3 o ewrakamen kai akhkoamen apaggellomen kai umin ina kai umeiv
                  koinwnian echte mey hmwn kai h koinwnia de h hmetera meta tou patrov kai
                  meta tou uiou autou ihsou cristou

                  The letter specifically identifies antichrist as that which presents
                  Jesus as other than:

                  * composed of flesh [en sarki elhluyota, ercomenon en sarki]
                  * the *son of* God [ihsous [cristos] estin o uios tou yeou] (which is a
                  royal designation)

                  These have:

                  * gone too far [pav o proagwn]
                  * have not limited themselves to Christ's teaching [kai mh menwn en th
                  didach tou cristou]

                  The "amoral" - "once saved always saved" concept is clearly in view as
                  well:

                  1 John 1:
                  6 ean eipwmen oti koinwnian ecomen met autou [claim to be genuine
                  Johanine christians] kai en tw skotei peripatwmen qeudomeya kai ou
                  poioumen thn alhyeian
                  7 ean de en tw fwti peripatwmen wv autov estin en tw fwti koinwnian
                  ecomen met allhlwn kai to aima ihsou tou uiou autou kayarizei hmav apo
                  pashv amartiav
                  8 ean eipwmen oti amartian ouk ecomen eautouv planwmen kai h alhyeia
                  ouk estin en hmin
                  9 ean omologwmen tav amartiav hmwn pistov estin kai dikaiov ina afh
                  hmin tav amartiav kai kayarish hmav apo pashv adikiav
                  10 ean eipwmen oti ouc hmarthkamen qeusthn poioumen auton kai o logov
                  autou ouk estin en hmin

                  1 John 2:
                  3 kai en toutw ginwskomen oti egnwkamen auton ean tav entolav autou
                  thrwmen
                  4 o legwn oti egnwka auton kai tav entolav autou mh thrwn qeusthv estin
                  kai en toutw h alhyeia ouk estin
                  5 ov d an thrh autou ton logon alhywv en toutw h agaph tou yeou
                  teteleiwtai en toutw ginwskomen oti en autw esmen
                  6 o legwn en autw menein ofeilei kaywv ekeinov periepathsen kai autov
                  peripatein

                  <Paul>
                  >>d) The group (in my view) therefore, appears to have departed in order
                  to assimilate back into the local Jewish community, where monotheism and
                  other Jewish measures of orthodoxy were more assured, and the Elder is
                  presented as seekng to stave off further defections.

                  <Bill>
                  There are zero assertions of divinity and zero attacks on Torah. If
                  anything, the assertions in 1 John are much more palatable to Judaism
                  than what might be construed from the gospel of John. Ie: Jesus is a
                  fleshly Christ, and obedience to God is enjoined.

                  <Paul>
                  >>e) The way the Elder does this is to emphasize that receiving the Son
                  means receiving the Father, but denying the Son (who represents the
                  Father unequivocally) results in the forfeiture of the Father--the very
                  interest of the schismatics.

                  <Bill>
                  John makes no mention of a divine "Son" (per your capital letter). He
                  hammers hard on his humanity. He identifies him as an anointed king
                  (Christ/son of God) and insists that all of the believers are sons of
                  God and advocates imitation of Christ now and the expectation to be like
                  Christ in the eschaton, for when we see him, we will see a man of flesh:

                  1Jo 3:2 agaphtoi nun tekna yeou esmen kai oupw efanerwyh ti esomeya
                  oidamen oti ean fanerwyh omoioi autw esomeya oti oqomeya auton kaywv
                  estin

                  <Paul>
                  >>The antichristoi of I John 4:1-3 and 2 John 7, however, bear other
                  traits and were not the same group:
                  a) "They" were also plural, but rather than a past threat, this one
                  seems to be impending--on the doorstep of the future.

                  <Bill>
                  Do you think the elder had any OT basis for linking the appearance of
                  those of the antichrist with the arrival of the end game? Who is the
                  "we" that recognizes that it is the end game by this appearance?

                  1Jo 2:18 paidia escath wra estin kai kaywv hkousate oti anticristov
                  ercetai kai nun anticristoi polloi gegonasin oyen ginwskomen [who is
                  this we? Does it not include his hearers? Why?] oti escath wra estin

                  <Paul>
                  >>...c) The content of their teachings was to be measured by the degree
                  to which they denied the fleshly humanity of Jesus (not a rejection of
                  his Messiahship, but his suffering humanity), and this becomes the
                  litmus test whereby the Elder emboldens his audiences to judge the
                  authenticity of traveling preachers.

                  <Bill>
                  ...which would seem to argue against these of antichrist being Jews. Ie:
                  It would be non-Jewish to assert the divinity of Christ, but not the
                  humanity. It would be non-Jewish to advocate that the activities done in
                  the flesh were irrelevant to being righteous, but not obeying divine
                  command. Ie: these folks are not erring toward Judaism that I can see by
                  the correctives issued by the elder.

                  <Paul>
                  >>d) The teaching likely involved aspects of assimilation most
                  attractive to Gentile Christians: either showing public reverence in the
                  imperial cult during the reign of Domitian (the crisis alluded to in
                  Revelation 13 and elsewhere in the Johannine Apocalypse) or the refusal
                  to leave behind any number of pagan ethical practices.

                  <Bill>
                  To show that Domitian was not divine, would the elder strongly assert
                  the humanity of Jesus? Would he insist on the believers being sons of
                  God?

                  These foes are claiming things/denying things about Christ, not the
                  emperor of Rome that I can tell. I see no reference to pagan ethics but
                  rather to a false christology and false christian ethic.

                  <Paul>
                  >>e) To offset these threats, the Elder advises people to be willing to
                  suffer for their faith and to be mindful of the suffering and death of
                  the Lord as the compelling example.

                  <Bill>
                  Where?

                  <Paul>
                  >>In that sense, they should be distinguished from the Thessalonian "man
                  of lawlessness" and the Apocalyptic beasts.

                  <Bill>
                  Sorry, Paul, I don't follow...

                  Bill Ross
                • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                  ... No, he doesn t. Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an) ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary to
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                    Bill Ross wrote:

                    > <James>
                    > >>...The fact that 1 John uses 'antichrists' in the plural shows that he
                    >
                    > >>does not have in mind a single figure, derived from Daniel or
                    > >>elsewhere, who sets himself up as God in the Temple.
                    >
                    > <Bill>
                    > John:
                    >
                    > * presumes that his readers have heard that an antichrist [singular]
                    > shall come
                    > * informs his readers that this is an indicator of the "last hour" or
                    > "finale"
                    > * informs his readers that the antichrist [singular] is already
                    > operational in the lost community [KOSMOS]
                    >
                    > (ISV) Little children, it is the last hour. Just as you heard that **an
                    > antichrist [anticristos = singular]** is coming [ercetai = singular], so
                    > now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know [oyen
                    > ginwskomen] it is the last hour.
                    >
                    > (YLT) and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh
                    > having come, of God it is not; and this is that of **the** antichrist
                    > [kai touto estin to tou anticristou = singular, articular], which ye
                    > heard that it doth come [ercetai = singular, present], and now in the
                    > world it is already [kai nun en tw kosmw estin hdh].
                    >
                    > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
                    >
                    > Matt 24:
                    > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation [bdelugma
                    > ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
                    > place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in
                    > Judaea flee into the mountains**:

                    No, he doesn't. Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
                    ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary to what
                    Matthew implies was being claimed by those who were urging the the elect not to
                    flee Jerusalem), the signal of the fall, not the deliverance, of the Holy City,
                    **not** of the last/late hour, let alone the "hour" that the author of the
                    Johannines speaks of.

                    I would be very grateful if you'd take into account the context in which the the
                    evidence you adduce for your views appears before you make any further claims
                    about what this evidence says, let alone that it says the same thing as the
                    author of the Johannines is allegedly saying about the ANTIXRISTOS. Proof
                    texting is not exegesis. It is straight jacketing the "evidence" into a
                    predetermined conclusion.

                    And may I request that if you are going to transliterate the Greek of the texts
                    you appeal to, you follow the transliteration scheme that is listed in the
                    protocols and that List Members are supposed to employ?

                    You are aware of this scheme, aren't you?

                    JG
                    --

                    Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                    1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                    Chicago, IL 60626

                    jgibson000@...
                  • Bill Ross
                    ... ... What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view between verse 15 and verse 16? None? Are you objecting to
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                      <Bill>
                      > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
                      >
                      > Matt 24:
                      > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
                      > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
                      > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
                      > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:

                      <Jeffrey>
                      >>No, he doesn't.

                      <Bill>
                      What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
                      between verse 15 and verse 16? None?

                      Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
                      To the appearance being an indicator of the end?

                      Matt 24:
                      32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
                      and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
                      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
                      near, even at the doors.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
                      ANTIXRISTOS, it is -- for those with understanding (and quite contrary
                      to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those who were urging the
                      the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the fall, not the
                      deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late hour, let alone
                      the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

                      <Bill>
                      I'm not up for unpacking all of Matt 24 right now, but suffice it to say
                      that he clearly intends to dissuade his readers from expecting the
                      kingdom imminently, but rather watching for the appropriate indicators -
                      per Daniel:

                      FALSE MESSIAHS DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
                      4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
                      you.
                      5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall
                      deceive many.

                      WARS, FAMINES, PESTILENCES AND EARTHQUAKES DO NOT SIGNAL THE END
                      6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
                      troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not
                      yet.
                      7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
                      and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers
                      places.
                      8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

                      PERSECUTION DOES NOT SIGNAL THE END
                      9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:
                      and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
                      10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and
                      shall hate one another.
                      11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
                      12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
                      13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

                      THE GOSPEL WILL REACH THE WHOLE WORLD BEFORE THE END
                      14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
                      for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

                      THE INTRODUCTION OF DANIEL'S ABOMINATION IS THE TIME TO GET PACKING
                      15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of
                      by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
                      understand:)
                      16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
                      17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out
                      of his house:
                      18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his
                      clothes.

                      THE ABOMINATION WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE SAINTS
                      19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
                      those days!
                      20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
                      sabbath day:
                      21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
                      beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                      22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
                      saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                      THERE WILL BE NO EARTHLY DELIVERER EXCEPT DECEIVERS
                      23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
                      believe it not.
                      24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
                      shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
                      shall deceive the very elect.
                      25 Behold, I have told you before.

                      THE RESCUE WILL COME FROM ABOVE
                      26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert;
                      go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
                      27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
                      the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                      28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered
                      together.
                      29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
                      darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall
                      fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man [per Daniel] in
                      heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
                      see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
                      glory.
                      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
                      they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end
                      of heaven to the other.

                      SO THE SIGNS ARE RELIABLE INDICATORS OF THE LATE HOUR
                      32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
                      and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
                      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is
                      near, even at the doors.

                      ISTM that the question is whether the descriptions in Paul and John
                      match that of Daniel.

                      Here are some more parallels.

                      Daniel's abomination will prevail against the saints mightily and shall
                      exalt himself above all gods:

                      Dan 11:
                      35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
                      purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it
                      is yet for a time appointed [ewv kairou perav oti eti eiv kairon].
                      36 And the king [o basileus] shall do according to his will; and he
                      shall exalt himself [uqwyhsetai], and magnify himself above every god
                      [megalunyhsetai epi panta yeon], and shall speak marvellous things
                      [lalhsei uperogka] against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the
                      indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

                      So in Matthew:

                      Matt 24:
                      19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
                      those days!
                      20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
                      sabbath day:
                      21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
                      beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
                      22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
                      saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

                      So in Revelation:

                      Rev 13:
                      7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to
                      overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues,
                      and nations.
                      8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are
                      not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of
                      the world.

                      So Paul:

                      2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,
                      or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
                      shewing himself that he is God.
                      ...
                      2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that
                      perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might
                      be saved.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>Beyond the fact that the abomination is **not** the (or even an)
                      ANTIXRISTOS,

                      <Bill>
                      Unless John is alluding to Daniel. ISTM that he is.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>it is -- for those with understanding

                      <Bill>
                      So says Daniel:

                      Da 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
                      people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
                      Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many:
                      yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by
                      spoil, many days.
                      Da 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the
                      wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked [ANOMIOI] shall
                      understand; but the wise shall understand [nohmones].

                      Paul seems to have in mind the matter that was "shut up until the end"
                      here:

                      2 Thes 2:7 For the mystery [MUSTHRION] of iniquity doth already work:
                      only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

                      And Revealation:

                      Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding [NOUS] count
                      the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number
                      is Six hundred threescore and six.

                      1 John also avows the understanding:

                      1 John 2:
                      20 But ye have an unction [XRISMA] from the Holy One, and ye know
                      [recognize] all things.
                      21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but
                      **because ye know it**, and that no lie is of the truth.
                      22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is
                      antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
                      23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he
                      that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
                      24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the
                      beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain
                      in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
                      25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
                      26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce
                      you.
                      27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and
                      **ye need not that any man teach you**: but as the same anointing
                      teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it
                      hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

                      So the stream of "understanding" runs thick from Dan.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>(and quite contrary to what Matthew implies was being claimed by those
                      who were urging the the elect not to flee Jerusalem), the signal of the
                      fall, not the deliverance, of the Holy City, **not** of the last/late
                      hour, let alone the "hour" that the author of the Johannines speaks of.

                      <Bill>
                      Matthew says that there would be **many wars** before the end. The
                      indicator of the end was the appearance of Dan's abomination.

                      Paul also forbids imagining an imminent or realized end apart from the
                      indicator of the appearance of Daniel's abomination:

                      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
                      come, except there come a [the] falling away [hO APOSTASIS] first, and
                      that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

                      The definite article before APOSTASIS indicates that he is referring to
                      a particular departure:

                      Dan 11:
                      32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by
                      flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and
                      do exploits.

                      Paul expands on this to show that the believer is not among those swept
                      away by the deceipt:

                      2 Thes 2:
                      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume
                      with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of
                      his coming:
                      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power
                      and signs and lying wonders,
                      10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
                      because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be
                      saved.
                      11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
                      should believe a lie:
                      12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had
                      pleasure in unrighteousness.
                      13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren
                      beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to
                      salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
                      14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory
                      of our Lord Jesus Christ.
                      15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye
                      have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>I would be very grateful if you'd take into account the context in
                      which the the evidence you adduce for your views appears before you make
                      any further claims about what this evidence says, let alone that it says
                      the same thing as the
                      author of the Johannines is allegedly saying about the ANTIXRISTOS.
                      Proof texting is not exegesis. It is straight jacketing the "evidence"
                      into a predetermined conclusion.

                      <Bill>
                      The differing contexts are different hands upon the same Daniel
                      "elephant." While the context is important, the common referent is
                      fundamental.

                      <Jeff>
                      >>And may I request that if you are going to transliterate the Greek of
                      the texts you appeal to, you follow the transliteration scheme that is
                      listed in the protocols and that List Members are supposed to employ?
                      You are aware of this scheme, aren't you?

                      <Bill>
                      I use the OnlineBible for quoted text. I hope that this will be
                      satisfactory as I have an ailment that makes it painful to type.

                      Bill Ross
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      ... In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                        Bill Ross wrote:

                        > <Bill>
                        > > Matthew also cites this as the indicator of the late hour:
                        > >
                        > > Matt 24:
                        > > 15 **When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
                        > > [bdelugma ths erhmwsews], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in
                        > > the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them
                        > > which be in Judaea flee into the mountains**:
                        >
                        > <Jeffrey>
                        > >>No, he doesn't.
                        >
                        > <Bill>
                        > What, then, do you see as the relationship that Matthew has in view
                        > between verse 15 and verse 16? None?
                        >
                        > Are you objecting to relating Matthew's abomination to Daniel's?
                        > To the appearance being an indicator of the end?
                        >

                        In a way, yes. The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication
                        that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears,
                        namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem
                        as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

                        More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio
                        principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE
                        END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense. So
                        too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis
                        named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have
                        shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of
                        the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the
                        language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify
                        their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The
                        Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God
                        called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the
                        EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's
                        way for his people.

                        Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is
                        proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual
                        exegesis and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in
                        its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on
                        the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of
                        this in all of your posts), I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

                        JG
                        --

                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
                        Chicago, IL 60626

                        jgibson000@...
                      • Bill Ross
                        ... ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue: Dan 11: 1b ...and ***there shall
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 29, 2003
                          <Jeff>
                          >>...The appearance of the A of B is **for Matthew** an indication that contrary to what Daniel says the faithful must do when the A of B appears, namely, take a stand **in Jerusalem**, the faithful must not stay in Jerusalem as they otherwise might have thought they should do.

                          <Bill>
                          ISTM that Dan says that the abomination will prevail, but this will be ended by the eschatalogical rescue:

                          Dan 11:
                          1b ...and ***there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation*** even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
                          2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [aiscunhn].
                          3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

                          So also Paul:

                          2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed [], whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [PAROUSIAS]:

                          1 John 2:28 ΒΆ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him [aiscunywmen ap autou] at his coming [PAROUSIA].

                          Isn't this Matt's perspective as well?

                          15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
                          16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
                          ...
                          21 For then shall be great tribulation, **such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be**.
                          22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
                          ...
                          26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
                          27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
                          28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
                          29 **Immediately after the tribulation of those days** shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
                          30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                          31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                          Luke does not see this discussion as demise but rescue:

                          Luke 21:
                          24 And they **shall fall by the edge of the sword [pesountai stomati macairhs]**, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
                          25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
                          26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
                          27 And then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
                          28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption [rescue] draweth nigh.
                          29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
                          30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
                          31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

                          ("Shall fall by the edge of the sword" and "led away captive" is from Daniel, as well as a period of time:

                          Da 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall [Heb=KASHAL] by the sword [KHEREB], and by flame, by captivity [SHABIY], and by spoil, many days [YOM].

                          So Paul sees a rescue from above:

                          1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

                          <Jeff>
                          >>More importantly, though, I'm objecting to your all too facile, and petitio principii laden assumption, that "the end" that Matthew speaks of here is THE END. If it were, the admonition to flee to the mountains would be nonsense.

                          <Bill>
                          The context is ambiguous but the reference to Daniel and the parousia are unavoidable:

                          Matt 24:30 And then shall appear [fanhsetai] the sign of the son of man in [EN] heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see [opsontai] the Son of man coming in [EPI] the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [meta dunamews kai doxhs pollhs].

                          <Jeff>
                          >>So too would most of the language and imagery that Matthew uses throughout the mis named "eschatological discourse", since, as George Caird and Tom Wright have shown, it is not centered in laying out a timetable for calculating the end of the space time universe, but is grounded in, and is intent to counteract, the language and imagery and the ideology that the Zealots appealed to to justify their beliefs that God supported holy war against the Romans (see Hengel's _The Zealots_ ) and that the way proclaimed by Jesus and his ilk to be what God called Israel to follow, a way which in Matthew is identified as the way of the EIRENHPOIOS, would not be despised by God and not divinely vindicated as God's way for his people.

                          <Bill>
                          Jeff, Caird and Wright have erected a straw man - there is no "end of the space time universe" in scripture. It is the parousia that is unmistakably in view, both in Daniel and in Matthew (and Luke and Paul and Revelation).

                          What is correct is that it is plain that human beings are not going to seize the Promised Land by force but rather God that will give the victory by Jesus Christ.

                          In fact, this is what 1 Cor 15:58 really says (contra most commentaries):

                          1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [idiom="humans"] cannot [ou dunatai=is not powerful enough] inherit [klhronomhsai="seize" or "take over"] the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                          Rather, it will be a miraculous, divinely empowered conquest:

                          51 Behold, I shew you a mystery [expouding a previously unintelligible saying]; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [the call to the battle]: for the trumpet [the call to the battle] shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                          54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the [previously unintelligible] saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
                          55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
                          56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
                          57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory [in the conquest of the promised land] through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                          <Jeff>
                          >>Sorry, Bill. But as it has become apparent to me that all you are going to do is proof text toward a predetermined conclusion rather than engage in actual exegesis

                          <Bill>
                          I have yet to see an example of your hermeneutic, other than dropping names of commentators!

                          <Jeff>
                          >>and or examine "John's" language and imagery on its own terms and in its own context, let alone consider what Johannine scholars have had to say on the matter of ANTIXRISTOS in 1 & 2 John (there has been a notable absence of this in all of your posts),

                          <Bill>
                          I read the commentaries but find it more helpful to see the connections with the scriptures the NT authors drew upon. I like my hermeneutic better than yours. Sorry to disappoint.

                          <Jeff>
                          >>I see no profit in continuing this conversation.

                          <Bill>
                          Perhaps you could just answer briefly these question (yes or no):

                          * did 1 John expect his readers to be expecting the appearance of an antichrist?
                          * did he see the appearance as indicative of the last hour?
                          * is there a Jewish/christian tradition extant that might have led him to see things this way?

                          My answer is yes to all 3. The tradition seems to be Daniel's abomination, Matthew's, Luke's and Paul's.

                          Bill Ross
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