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RE: [John_Lit] I John 1 and Christian Education

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  • Bill Ross
    ... believers in danger of being led astray. In fact, the apparent contradictions in this letter would certainly be more than enough to destroy the
    Message 1 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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      <John>
      >>...It is, therefore, difficult to believe that he's writing to weak
      believers in danger of being led astray. In fact, the apparent
      contradictions in this letter would certainly be more than enough to
      destroy the faith of any weak believer in danger of being lead astray...

      <Bill>
      My take is that this was written on the occasion of the first rumblings
      of antichrist. Ie: Paul said antichrist was active but not overt, even
      in 35 AD!:

      2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now
      letteth [supreses] will let [supress], until he [Roman opposition] be
      taken out of the way.

      Out of the Johannine community came those who deified Christ and
      advocated worshipping him as God himself!

      2 Thess 2:
      3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
      except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
      the son of perdition;
      4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
      that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
      shewing himself that he is God.
      5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these
      things?

      Rev 13:
      15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the
      image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would
      not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
      16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and
      bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
      17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the
      name of the beast, or the number of his name.
      18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of
      the beast: for it is the number of [invented by] a man; and his number
      is Six hundred threescore and six [ie: a trinitarian number].

      So 1 John is written saying:

      "Jesus was a human. What lessons can we learn about God and the gospel
      from the humanity of Jesus?"

      Only he says "what we have seen and touched" - learned about the word of
      life - from the flesh of Jesus.

      Bill Ross
    • Eileen Noyes-Verchereau
      Dear Bill Ross, I m curious what leads you to conclude that the 1 Thessalonians and Revelations pericopes you cite have the Johannine community as their
      Message 2 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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        Dear Bill Ross,

        I'm curious what leads you to conclude that the 1 Thessalonians and
        Revelations pericopes you cite have the Johannine community as their
        specific point of reference.


        Eileen Noyes-Verchereau
      • Bill Ross
        ... Revelations pericopes you cite have the Johannine community as their specific point of reference. 1Jo 2: 18 Little children, it is the
        Message 3 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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          <Eileen>
          >>I'm curious what leads you to conclude that the 1 Thessalonians and
          Revelations pericopes you cite have the Johannine community as their
          specific point of reference.

          <Bill>
          1Jo 2:
          18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
          antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we
          know that it is the last time.
          19 ***They went out from us***, but they were not of us; for if they
          had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they
          went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

          Antichristian views of Jesus were aberrations of John's high
          Christology. 1 John acts as a corrective of those who went off the deep
          end into the idea of Jesus being divine, rather than the locus of the
          Word of God (the LOGOS). That is why John begins with affirming the very
          concrete nature of Jesus, the forgiveness of sin and the believer also
          being children of God:

          1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in
          the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

          Bill Ross
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... I note with interest that this is not an answer to the question raised. Can you provide your reasons for assuming as you do that the mystery of iniquity
          Message 4 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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            Bill Ross wrote:

            > <Eileen>
            > >>I'm curious what leads you to conclude that the 1 Thessalonians and
            > Revelations pericopes you cite have the Johannine community as their
            > specific point of reference.
            >
            > <Bill>
            > 1Jo 2:
            > 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
            > antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we
            > know that it is the last time.
            > 19 ***They went out from us***, but they were not of us; for if they
            > had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they
            > went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
            >
            > Antichristian views of Jesus were aberrations of John's high
            > Christology. 1 John acts as a corrective of those who went off the deep
            > end into the idea of Jesus being divine, rather than the locus of the
            > Word of God (the LOGOS). That is why John begins with affirming the very
            > concrete nature of Jesus, the forgiveness of sin and the believer also
            > being children of God:
            >
            > 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in
            > the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

            I note with interest that this is not an answer to the question raised. Can you
            provide your reasons for assuming as you do that the "mystery of iniquity" is
            not only the antichrist, but that it is the antichrist that the author of 1 John
            has in view? What is your warrant for reading 1 John through Paul?

            And a side note -- I believe it is general List policy that one should avoid
            doing exegesis on the basis of an English translation of the texts you are
            trying to unpack, especially the KJV. I'd be grateful, especially when you are
            trying to make the case that a Pauline idea and a Johannine idea are one and the
            same, that you argue on the basis of the Greek text.

            Yours,

            Jeffrey Gibson

            --

            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

            1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            Chicago, IL 60626

            jgibson000@...
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