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Re: [John_Lit] John 1.3

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  • Peter Phillips
    Bill, I am not saying that searching the LXX is stupid. I am just saying that a study of the lexica and wordbooks such as TDNT, as well as good commentaries,
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 20 12:58 AM
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      Bill,

      I am not saying that searching the LXX is stupid. I am just saying that a
      study of the lexica and wordbooks such as TDNT, as well as good
      commentaries, like Barrett, Bultman, Schnackenburg, Hoskyns, Lindars,
      Carson, Lincoln, Moloney and detailed studies by people like Feuillet,
      Boismard and Counet would help you get the background and see how other
      people have tried to invent the wheel already, rather than feeling that you
      have to do it straightaway yourself.

      1QS11.11 is the Community Scroll from Cave 1 in Qumran.

      Pete
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Ross" <BillRoss@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:05 PM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] John 1.3


      <Pete>
      >>This is all well and good but you need to look at Louw-Nida and LSJ and
      see what they have to say about GINESQAI. Just because the verb is used in
      the Prologue in apposition to EINAI it does not mean that every time it
      appears it means the same thing - i.e. because it means "was" in relation to
      John the Baptist does not mean it does in 1.3.

      <Bill Ross>
      Of course not. But John uses two related words. One he clearly uses as "was"
      the other is a very strong allusion to Gen 1. Then he refers to John and
      uses the less expected word. My question is why? Perhaps I am making too
      much of it, but perhaps not. To me it seems significant.

      <Pete>
      GINESQAI is used in terms of process whereas EINAI is used in terms of
      stasis. Therefore is simply means that something came into existence. In
      terms of things coming into existence through him, the concept of creation
      seems obvious.

      <Bill>
      Actually, the underlying concept isn't so much "creation" as we are used to
      conceiving it, but of transformation, or bringing about, or changing form.
      Ie: Light was not "created" ex nihilo, but rather extracted from the
      darkness.

      The pattern seems to go like this:

      "God said - let there be x..."

      Then...

      "And God formed x..."

      Notice:

      SAID
      3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light:

      FORMED
      and there was light.
      4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from
      the darkness.

      SAID
      6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and
      let it divide the waters from the waters.

      FORMED
      7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the
      firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

      SAID
      9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto
      one place, and let the dry land appear:

      FORMED
      and it was so.
      10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the
      waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

      SAID
      11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
      and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself,
      upon the earth:

      FORMED
      and it was so.
      12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his
      kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind:
      and God saw that it was good.

      SAID
      14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to
      divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons,
      and for days, and years:
      15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light
      upon the earth:

      FORMED
      and it was so.
      16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
      the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

      SAID
      20 ¶ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature
      that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament
      of heaven.

      FORMED
      21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,
      which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every
      winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

      SAID
      24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his
      kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind:

      FORMED
      and it was so.
      25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after
      their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and
      God saw that it was good.

      SAID
      26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let
      them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air,
      and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing
      that creepeth upon the earth.

      FORMED
      27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
      male and female created he them.


      All of the NT usages of GINOMAI refer to "coming to be" in a transforming,
      not a creative sense. Here are just a few examples:

      Mt 1:22 Now all this was done <1096>, that it might be fulfilled which was
      spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
      Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of
      God, command that these stones be made <1096> bread.
      Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
      one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled <1096>.
      Mt 5:45 That ye may be <1096> the children of your Father which is in
      heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and
      sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
      Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done <1096> in earth, as it is in
      heaven.
      Mt 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be <1096> not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
      countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men
      to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
      Mt 7:28 And it came to pass <1096>, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the
      people were astonished at his doctrine:
      Mt 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast
      believed, so be it done <1096> unto thee. And his servant was healed in the
      selfsame hour.
      Mt 8:16 When the even was come <1096>, they brought unto him many that were
      possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed
      all that were sick:
      Mt 8:24 And, behold, there arose <1096> a great tempest in the sea,
      insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
      Mt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?
      Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was <1096> a
      great calm.
      Mt 9:10 And it came to pass <1096>, as Jesus sat at meat in the house,
      behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his
      disciples.
      Mt 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that
      which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made
      <1096> worse.

      <Pete>
      >>In fact, that all things happen through him is simply mistaken. The
      suggestion that this is what we have in 1QS11.11 is wrong because it talks
      there of the divine plan rather than the LOGOS and also is set within a
      passage concerning repentence not cosmology.

      <Bill>
      Sorry, what is 1QS11.11?

      <Pete>
      >>I think I'd encourage you to go to the commentaries rather than play
      around with Strongs and search the LXX for English phrases.

      <Bill>
      I'm not "playing around with Strong's." Searching the LXX for Greek usages
      is a sound exegetical principal, particularly where we have a strong
      allussion in the first to words to the first two words of Gen 1.

      If you think that comparing John's word choices to the LXX is stupid and
      commentaries smart, I think we just have a different idea of how to approach
      scripture:

      YLT
      1Co 2:13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom,
      but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual
      things comparing,

      Bill Ross



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