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Re: [John_Lit] Re: 2nd Temple - Gospels -Supplement

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  • John Lupia
    ... Dear John: I extend to you my humblest apologies for taking so long to respond to your intelligent query. Chi due volpe caccia l’una per l’altra perde.
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 4, 2003
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      --- John E Staton <jestaton@...> wrote:
      > John,
      > I too would like to place Luke early, but is
      > not AD 37-41 a little
      > *too* early? How does Acts fit into this scenario?
      > Why should Luke address
      > the second volume also to *this* Theophilus, and why
      > wait until c. AD62 (the
      > earliest date for Acts if one assumes it was written
      > while Paul was still in
      > Rome awaiting trial and that he was eventually
      > cleared at *that* hearing,
      > only to be condemned before Nero later)?
      > The rest of your thesis sounds very good,
      > though Jimmy Dunn in his
      > recent work on Oral Tradition would perhaps still
      > suggest you were overly
      > wedded to *written* traditions. Could Luke's sources
      > have been oral? Or at
      > least some of them?
      > But we are getting very far away from
      > John
      >
      > Best Wishes
      >
      > JOHN E STATON


      --- John E Staton <jestaton@...> wrote:
      > John,
      > I too would like to place Luke early, but is
      > not AD 37-41 a little
      > *too* early? How does Acts fit into this scenario?
      > Why should Luke address
      > the second volume also to *this* Theophilus, and why
      > wait until c. AD62 (the
      > earliest date for Acts if one assumes it was written
      > while Paul was still in
      > Rome awaiting trial and that he was eventually
      > cleared at *that* hearing,
      > only to be condemned before Nero later)?
      > The rest of your thesis sounds very good,
      > though Jimmy Dunn in his
      > recent work on Oral Tradition would perhaps still
      > suggest you were overly
      > wedded to *written* traditions. Could Luke's sources
      > have been oral? Or at
      > least some of them?
      > But we are getting very far away from


      Dear John:

      I extend to you my humblest apologies for taking so
      long to respond to your intelligent query.

      Chi due volpe caccia l�una per l�altra perde. (Tuscan
      proverb)

      You ask an excellent question and one that should be
      addressed since it appears on the surface to pose an
      obstacle to the tenability of the thesis as outlined.
      However, this is merely an apparent contradiction.
      Let me explain. I have posted on another academic
      list my views on this some years ago. I stated then
      and still hold that Luke/Acts was written during the
      time period I suggest, but that, at the time of
      original publication of Acts it only included the
      first 11 chapters and probably ended at either v. 18,
      or v. 26. The remainder, evidently was written either
      by a later Luke or a second hand. However, the latter
      is highly unlikely considering the chi square analyses
      in the stylometric study on the comparison of
      Luke/Acts done by Anthony Kenny (see Table 12.1; Table
      12.2 in Anthony Kenny, A Stylometric Study of the New
      Testament (Oxford, 1986):73-4. Given the nature of
      Acts being a chronicle it is not uncommon that a
      chronicler adds to an already existing work updating
      the material thereby extending the timeline.

      With best regards,
      John


      =====
      John N. Lupia, III
      31 Norwich Drive
      Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
      Phone: (732) 341-8689
      Email: jlupia2@...
      Editor, Roman Catholic News
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

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    • John N. Lupia
      John Staton: The rest of your thesis sounds very good, though Jimmy Dunn in his recent work on Oral Tradition would perhaps still suggest you were overly
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 5, 2003
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        John Staton:
        The rest of your thesis sounds very good, though Jimmy Dunn in his recent
        work on Oral Tradition would perhaps still suggest you were overly wedded t=
        o
        *written* traditions. Could Luke's sources have been oral? Or at least some=
        of
        them? But we are getting very far away from John.

        Dear John & List:

        Once again I must apologize for having posted too soon in the wee hours of =

        the morn and failed to address the second half of your query.

        Regarding James D. G. Dunn and his writing on `oral tradition," it is
        abundantly self-evident that he overstates the case to excess as the essent=
        ial
        primary source of Jesus and his teachings. This view fails to take into
        consideration the scholarly research of well over a century into archaeolog=
        y,
        papyrology, epigraphy, codicology, and the wealth of historical research on=

        literature production and its materials, methods and techniques, the
        archaeological and historical record of the various scribal centers through=
        out
        the first century world, the number and location of many eminent libraries =
        and
        archives well attested to at the time, as well as the categorization and
        classification in antique taxonomies, and the dissemination of information =
        and
        publications in the first century era in which Luke and the other Evangelis=
        ts
        composed their texts. Dunn has done nothing more than to extend the voice=

        of Ferdinand Christian Baur (1792-1860), head of the Tübingen School, into =

        our time tickling the ears with false teachings (2 Tim 4:3), since the
        perspective is distorted and lopsided closing its eyes to all variables and=
        the
        full array of evidence available and fully accessible. In 1477, Gabriel Bie=
        l (d.
        1495) and Count Eberhard founded the University of Tübingen. Biel
        becomes the first Professor of theology in 1484. Neither Baur nor his stu=
        dent
        David Strauss (1808-1874) could compare to the excellence of Biel who has
        been hypocoristically termed "the last of the Scholastics". If the Tübinge=
        n's
        would have given heed to Biel's doctrine of potentia absoluta they would
        have grasped its profound application to Sacred Scripture and saw that ther=
        e
        is no self-contradiction contained therein, but rather, the self-contradict=
        ion lies
        within those who fail to grasp its meaning and origin. If they would have =
        only
        read Biel's Sermo historialis passionis dominicae they would have come to
        grasp the historical nature of Jesus and the veracity of the Passion Narrat=
        ive.

        (see Gabriel Biel, De passione christi sermo / eximij sacre theologie docto=
        ris
        Guilermi de Aquisgrano. (Basel : Michael Wenssler, not after 26 September
        1486).



        Consequently, I am inclined to see Dunn as so many others deeply
        entrenched in their perspectives, and eyes encrusted with the past two
        centuries of biases and hidden agendas. The time has come to leave the
        trenches and come into the light of day. The deeper the ramifications sink =
        in it
        will become pellucid to everyone that for Markan priority or any other Gosp=
        el
        priority other than that of Luke, this thesis which I have provided is an
        impassable and insurmountable monolithic stumbling block far surpassing in =

        scope Everest, Mauna Kea, or Chimborazo, regardless of how one measures
        its height: (a) sea level, (b) ocean floor, (c) epicenter of earth.

        With best regards,
        John
      • John E Staton
        John, Thank you for your reply. Concerning Acts, you have answered my curiosity. I would have to read your thesis in more detail before I could discuss it
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 5, 2003
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          John,
          Thank you for your reply. Concerning Acts, you have answered my
          curiosity. I would have to read your thesis in more detail before I could
          discuss it further, so I do not intend to do so.

          Concerning Dunn's hypothesis, however, I think you have not been
          quite fair. I by no means agree with everything the man has written. Indeed
          I would take great issue with him on some matters, but I am not convinced he
          quite deserves the comments you made of him.
          I take the point about the ancient libraries, but surely one must
          accept that in the earliest church we do not have a school of scribes with a
          library and a scriptorum at their disposal. Many of the first Christians
          were of the lower social classes (Alright, I know all of them weren't, but
          many were) and for much of the first three centuries the church was
          persecuted. This must have made the kind of literary editing you suggest
          quite difficult.
          It may be justifiable to argue that Dunn "overegged" his own pudding,
          and that maybe there was more scope for written sources than he allows. But
          much of what he said made good sense of the literature we have in the NT,
          and he may well have grasped something very important about the way in which
          the gospel tradition was passed on.

          Best Wishes

          JOHN E STATON
          www.jestaton.org
          jestaton@...
        • John Lupia
          John Staton: Concerning Dunn s hypothesis, however, I think you have not been quite fair. I by no means agree with everything the man has written. Indeed I
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 6, 2003
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            John Staton:
            Concerning Dunn's hypothesis, however, I think you
            have not been quite fair. I by no means agree with
            everything the man has written. Indeed I would take
            great issue with him on some matters, but I am not
            convinced he quite deserves the comments you made of
            him.


            John:
            He certainly does. Please consult the vast published
            research available on this subject (ancient writing,
            materials, etc.) available in most academic research
            libraries. Consequently, this is a compound fallacy of
            two orders: (1) the irrelevant conclusion: which
            states that an argument in defense of one conclusion,
            which instead, proves a different conclusion equally
            fallacious; (2) a classic example of an argumentum ad
            verecundiam, since the authority above referenced
            (James Dunn) is not an authority at all on ancient
            writing and literature production.

            cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
            Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991): 155; Irving M.
            Copi, and Carl Cohen, Introduction to Logic. 8th ed.
            (Macmillan, 1990): 95


            John Staton:
            I take the point about the ancient libraries, but
            surely one must accept that in the earliest church we
            do not have a school of scribes with a library and a
            scriptor[i]um at their disposal.


            John:
            This acceptance is gratuitous and incorrect. This is
            what I call an OOTA proposition, a proposition, which
            is formed: Out Of Thin Air. All OOTA propositions are
            foundationless and a house of cards, sometimes
            referred to as smoke and mirrors or illusionary
            evidence.


            John Staton:
            Many of the first Christians were of the lower social
            classes (Alright, I know all of them weren't, but many
            were) and for much of the first three centuries the
            church was persecuted.


            John:
            This sentence is a compound bifurcation, properly
            termed a fallacy of complex questions: In this case,
            two otherwise unrelated premises are conjoined and
            treated as a single proposition. The reader is
            expected to either accept or reject both together,
            when in reality one may be acceptable while the other
            is not. A complex question, consequently, is an
            illegitimate use of the "and" operator within the
            propositional premise. Moreover, it is also a fallacy
            of a slothful induction, which states that a proper
            conclusion of an inductive argument is denied despite
            the evidence to the contrary; as well as the fallacy
            of exclusion, which states, important evidence that
            would undermine or overturn an inductive argument is
            gratuitously excluded from consideration. The
            requirement that all relevant information be included
            is called the "principle of total evidence, which is
            what I am arguing for.



            cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
            Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991): 86; Irving M.
            Copi, and Carl Cohen, Introduction to Logic. 8th ed.
            (Macmillan, 1990): 96


            Nota bene: In this case the reader simply needs to
            identify the two propositions illegitimately conjoined
            and show that of one opts to believe one it does not
            follow that you have to either believe or consider the
            other.

            In sum:

            First, you have made a conclusion regarding the early
            Church demographics and have not provided any
            scientific method or criteria on which this is based.
            Second, how do you assess Church population size, and
            place these assessments at specific dates? Third, how
            do you assess the demographic breakdown of each set
            and create subsets? Fourth, how do you then assess
            the literacy levels within each set and subset?
            Fifth, the assumption entails that the entire
            ecclesiastical body was responsible for composing
            texts, an assumption that also is bizarre. Sixth,
            there is no logical correlation to the persecution of
            Christians in the first three centuries and the
            composition of the NT texts. Seventh, no scientific
            methods or criteria are given to assess this
            persecution. Eighth, the final clause assumes or at
            least implies that the NT texts were composed in the
            first three centuries, an assumption that also is
            bizarre. Ninth, the assumption of the final clause has
            not taken into consideration recent published
            research, that assess the persecution of Christians as
            far less severe than the older literature.

            cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
            Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991):226, 257, 372

            John Staton:
            This must have made the kind of literary editing you
            suggest quite difficult.


            John:
            Not in the least. This is also a gratuitous
            assumption, another OOTA proposition. Please consult
            the survey of scholarly literature on this subject.

            John Staton:
            It may be justifiable to argue that Dunn
            "overegged" his own pudding, and that maybe there was
            more scope for written sources than he allows. But
            much of what he said made good sense of the literature
            we have in the NT, and he may well have grasped
            something very important about the way in which the
            gospel tradition was passed on.

            John:
            Perhaps, some trivial contribution has been made by
            Dunn on oral communication theory, but his thesis is
            largely flawed due to his failing to consider the
            corpora of literature on writing in the first century
            as I have already indicated pellucidly above. Hence,
            another classic example of an argumentum ad
            verecundiam, since the authority above referenced
            (James Dunn) is not an authority at all on ancient
            writing and literature production.


            Helpful Suggestion:

            Take, for example, Gamble�s essay on �Early Christian
            Libraries,� see particularly his comments on Irenaeus
            of Lyons, Tertullian, and Ignatius (cf. Harry Y.
            Gamble, Books and Readers in the Early Church. A
            History of Early Christian Texts (Yale, 1995):152ff.
            Gamble points out that Church archives already exist
            in records dating to c. 100-108, which logically, must
            have predated this. Consequently, there are grounds
            sufficient enough to consider that this modus operandi
            was effective earlier and may possibly date back to
            the time of the Evangelists themselves.


            With best regards,
            John


            =====
            John N. Lupia, III
            31 Norwich Drive
            Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
            Phone: (732) 341-8689
            Email: jlupia2@...
            Editor, Roman Catholic News
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

            __________________________________________________
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            Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
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          • Jeffrey B. Gibson
            ... [snip ... Did I miss something? All I ve seen is a declaration that there **is** a corpora of literature, presumably on the subject of ancient writing
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 6, 2003
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              John Lupia wrote:

              > John Staton:
              > Concerning Dunn's hypothesis, however, I think you
              > have not been quite fair. I by no means agree with
              > everything the man has written. Indeed I would take
              > great issue with him on some matters, but I am not
              > convinced he quite deserves the comments you made of
              > him.
              >
              > John:
              > He certainly does. Please consult the vast published
              > research available on this subject (ancient writing,
              > materials, etc.) available in most academic research
              > libraries.

              [snip

              > John Staton:
              > It may be justifiable to argue that Dunn
              > "overegged" his own pudding, and that maybe there was
              > more scope for written sources than he allows. But
              > much of what he said made good sense of the literature
              > we have in the NT, and he may well have grasped
              > something very important about the way in which the
              > gospel tradition was passed on.
              >
              > John:
              > Perhaps, some trivial contribution has been made by
              > Dunn on oral communication theory, but his thesis is
              > largely flawed due to his failing to consider the
              > corpora of literature on writing in the first century
              > as I have already indicated pellucidly above.

              Did I miss something? All I've seen is a declaration that there **is** a
              corpora of literature, presumably on the subject of "ancient writing
              **materals**, etc.". But is this in any way a real indication, "pellucid" or
              otherwise, that such a corpora of literature on writing in the first century
              actually exists? More importantly, if it **does** exist (and assuming that
              what it says is true), how do you know that Dunn has failed to consider it?

              Perhaps you'd tell us what you've actually read of Dunn.

              JG
              --

              Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

              1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
              Chicago, IL 60626

              jgibson000@...
            • John Lupia
              A Cross posting. Apologies to those who have seen it on other academic lists posted by Bob Kraft. PHILADELPHIA SEMINAR ON CHRISTIAN ORIGINS THE FOURTH MEETING
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 6, 2003
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                A Cross posting. Apologies to those who have seen it
                on other academic lists posted by Bob Kraft.


                PHILADELPHIA SEMINAR ON CHRISTIAN ORIGINS

                THE FOURTH MEETING OF 2002-03 will be held on
                Thursday, 13 March 2003 from 7-9 pm at the Religion
                Department, Princeton University (1879 Hall).

                Details about dinner (6 pm) will be forthcoming (also
                check the web page).

                The Theme of this session is Case Studies in Jubilees
                and Sirach.

                Our speakers are:

                William Adler (North Carolina State University),
                "The Christian Reception of Jubilees: A Prime
                Example";

                Benjamin G. Wright (Lehigh University),
                "Ben Sira among the Rabbis" --

                followed by a response from Martha Himmelfarb
                (Princeton University).

                Bill Adler intends to focus on Gen 27.40-41 in Jub
                26.34; and especially Gen 11.26-12.4 in Jub
                11.10-12.31 and Acts 7.2-4 (more details on the PSCO
                website, noted below).

                http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/psco/


                =====
                John N. Lupia, III
                31 Norwich Drive
                Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
                Phone: (732) 341-8689
                Email: jlupia2@...
                Editor, Roman Catholic News
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

                __________________________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
                http://taxes.yahoo.com/
              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: John Lupia To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: 2nd
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 7, 2003
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "John Lupia" <jlupia2@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 5:54 PM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: 2nd Temple - Gospels -Supplement


                  >
                  > John Staton:
                  > Concerning Dunn's hypothesis, however, I think you
                  > have not been quite fair. I by no means agree with
                  > everything the man has written. Indeed I would take
                  > great issue with him on some matters, but I am not
                  > convinced he quite deserves the comments you made of
                  > him.
                  >
                  >
                  > John:
                  > He certainly does. Please consult the vast published
                  > research available on this subject (ancient writing,
                  > materials, etc.) available in most academic research
                  > libraries. Consequently, this is a compound fallacy of
                  > two orders: (1) the irrelevant conclusion: which
                  > states that an argument in defense of one conclusion,
                  > which instead, proves a different conclusion equally
                  > fallacious; (2) a classic example of an argumentum ad
                  > verecundiam, since the authority above referenced
                  > (James Dunn) is not an authority at all on ancient
                  > writing and literature production.
                  >
                  > cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
                  > Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991): 155; Irving M.
                  > Copi, and Carl Cohen, Introduction to Logic. 8th ed.
                  > (Macmillan, 1990): 95
                  >
                  >
                  > John Staton:
                  > I take the point about the ancient libraries, but
                  > surely one must accept that in the earliest church we
                  > do not have a school of scribes with a library and a
                  > scriptor[i]um at their disposal.
                  >
                  >
                  > John:
                  > This acceptance is gratuitous and incorrect. This is
                  > what I call an OOTA proposition, a proposition, which
                  > is formed: Out Of Thin Air. All OOTA propositions are
                  > foundationless and a house of cards, sometimes
                  > referred to as smoke and mirrors or illusionary
                  > evidence.
                  >
                  >
                  > John Staton:
                  > Many of the first Christians were of the lower social
                  > classes (Alright, I know all of them weren't, but many
                  > were) and for much of the first three centuries the
                  > church was persecuted.
                  >
                  >
                  > John:
                  > This sentence is a compound bifurcation, properly
                  > termed a fallacy of complex questions: In this case,
                  > two otherwise unrelated premises are conjoined and
                  > treated as a single proposition. The reader is
                  > expected to either accept or reject both together,
                  > when in reality one may be acceptable while the other
                  > is not. A complex question, consequently, is an
                  > illegitimate use of the "and" operator within the
                  > propositional premise. Moreover, it is also a fallacy
                  > of a slothful induction, which states that a proper
                  > conclusion of an inductive argument is denied despite
                  > the evidence to the contrary; as well as the fallacy
                  > of exclusion, which states, important evidence that
                  > would undermine or overturn an inductive argument is
                  > gratuitously excluded from consideration. The
                  > requirement that all relevant information be included
                  > is called the "principle of total evidence, which is
                  > what I am arguing for.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
                  > Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991): 86; Irving M.
                  > Copi, and Carl Cohen, Introduction to Logic. 8th ed.
                  > (Macmillan, 1990): 96
                  >
                  >
                  > Nota bene: In this case the reader simply needs to
                  > identify the two propositions illegitimately conjoined
                  > and show that of one opts to believe one it does not
                  > follow that you have to either believe or consider the
                  > other.
                  >
                  > In sum:
                  >
                  > First, you have made a conclusion regarding the early
                  > Church demographics and have not provided any
                  > scientific method or criteria on which this is based.
                  > Second, how do you assess Church population size, and
                  > place these assessments at specific dates? Third, how
                  > do you assess the demographic breakdown of each set
                  > and create subsets? Fourth, how do you then assess
                  > the literacy levels within each set and subset?
                  > Fifth, the assumption entails that the entire
                  > ecclesiastical body was responsible for composing
                  > texts, an assumption that also is bizarre. Sixth,
                  > there is no logical correlation to the persecution of
                  > Christians in the first three centuries and the
                  > composition of the NT texts. Seventh, no scientific
                  > methods or criteria are given to assess this
                  > persecution. Eighth, the final clause assumes or at
                  > least implies that the NT texts were composed in the
                  > first three centuries, an assumption that also is
                  > bizarre. Ninth, the assumption of the final clause has
                  > not taken into consideration recent published
                  > research, that assess the persecution of Christians as
                  > far less severe than the older literature.
                  >
                  > cf. Jerry Cedarblom, and David W. Paulsen, Critical
                  > Reasoning. 3rd ed. (Wadsworth, 1991):226, 257, 372
                  >
                  > John Staton:
                  > This must have made the kind of literary editing you
                  > suggest quite difficult.
                  >
                  >
                  > John:
                  > Not in the least. This is also a gratuitous
                  > assumption, another OOTA proposition. Please consult
                  > the survey of scholarly literature on this subject.
                  >
                  > John Staton:
                  > It may be justifiable to argue that Dunn
                  > "overegged" his own pudding, and that maybe there was
                  > more scope for written sources than he allows. But
                  > much of what he said made good sense of the literature
                  > we have in the NT, and he may well have grasped
                  > something very important about the way in which the
                  > gospel tradition was passed on.
                  >
                  > John:
                  > Perhaps, some trivial contribution has been made by
                  > Dunn on oral communication theory, but his thesis is
                  > largely flawed due to his failing to consider the
                  > corpora of literature on writing in the first century
                  > as I have already indicated pellucidly above. Hence,
                  > another classic example of an argumentum ad
                  > verecundiam, since the authority above referenced
                  > (James Dunn) is not an authority at all on ancient
                  > writing and literature production.


                  As an academic, I am uncomfortable with arguing a position on early church
                  demographics by citing various logical fallacies, whether appropriate or not
                  and using references in the logic literature base. Firstly, I find the
                  "fallacy assignments" as tendentious at best. Secondly, I want to see
                  evidence presented on your position in the argument itself. As a moderator,
                  I am VERY uncomfortable with this assessment of Jimmy Dunn which is VERY
                  inappropriate and off the mark. Get back to the argument and present your
                  evidences without the ad hominem directed to Prof. Dunn.

                  Jack
                • John Lupia
                  This is part of an essay I am writing that focuses on features of my thesis already outlined in previous posts. As I have initially said a reader can see a
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 7, 2003
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                    This is part of an essay I am writing that focuses on
                    features of my thesis already outlined in previous
                    posts.


                    As I have initially said a reader can see a direct
                    relationship with the �Storm at Sea Narrative to that
                    of �Jesus walking on the water� Matthew 14:22-33; Mark
                    6:45-52; John 6:15b-21. Luke omitted this episode,
                    since he was unaware of it. Both Two-Source and
                    Two-Gospel theorists hold this as evidence of either
                    Mark or Matthew's primacy. Rather, after carefully
                    examining those texts the opposite appears to be true.
                    John 6:15b-21 appears to be the earliest version of
                    that narrative since the Evangelists crafted their
                    narratives to express or teach important truths based
                    on established illustrative models. John seems to be
                    making a spiritual commentary on Horace Epistles,
                    coelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currant,
                    meaning the skies not the spirit changes for those who
                    cross the sea. What John may have been pointing out
                    was that even if Peter could walk across the sea it
                    would not improve him or make him greater than what he
                    already was.

                    Additionally, the Hellenistic audience familiar with
                    mythological fables could have associated Jesus�
                    ability to walk on water with the Greek myth of
                    Iphiclus, the son of Phylacus, who was believed to
                    have the ability to run over the sea (cf. Hyginus,
                    Astronomica 2.28; Argonautica Orphica; Argonauts, by
                    arious authors including Valerius Flaccus, Apollodrus,
                    Apollonius Rhodius,). Variant accounts have it that
                    he could run over the fruit of the Asphodel or ears of
                    wheat and not damage them (see Fragment #84
                    --Scholiast on Homer, Od. xi. 326J. The concept of
                    walking on the sea, therefore, was an already
                    established one in the Hellenistic world. This is
                    further evidenced in the myth regarding Zeus who gave
                    Troa, the father of Ganymede two immortal horses that
                    could run over the water. John, therefore, associated
                    Simon Peter and Jesus with this divine attribute to
                    establish theological truths about Jesus through the
                    story. What strengthens this analysis is that the
                    Walking on the Water Narrative can be demonstrated as
                    a re-adaptation of the Storm at sea Narrative
                    evidenced clearly in Matthew.

                    Matthew incorporates the seven elements and adapts
                    them as follows. As we examine his version of that
                    story we can see the same elements contained in each:
                    (1) the disciples board a boat; (2) a storm breaks
                    out; (3) Jesus is walking; (4) the apostles panic; (5)
                    Jesus calms them; (6) Jesus asks Peter about his
                    faith; and (7) the apostles are amazed at the power
                    Jesus possess over nature.

                    Moreover, Matthew adapts the Storm at Sea Narrative
                    using the passage from Proverbs 10:24-25

                    What the wicked man fears overtakes him, what the
                    virtuous desires comes to him as a present. When the
                    storm is over, the wicked man is no more, but the
                    virtuous stands firm forever.

                    Here Peter is seen as the prototypical Christian
                    struggling between good and evil. Peter conforms to
                    Aristotle's description of the tragic hero having
                    hamartia (amartia). G.M.A. Grube (1958) has pointed
                    out that the word hamartia was rich in meaning and
                    signified mistake, error, flaw or wrongdoing. He
                    notes that the term has been variously interpreted as
                    "a moral flaw," "an error of judgment," or a mere
                    "misstep." The deliberate pun on "misstep" is obvious
                    in the Gospel narrative. It is connected to the Greek
                    word agnoew as used by Hippocrates, Art. 46,
                    signifying to go wrong, make a misstep. This same
                    Greek word is found later on in Polybius, 5.11.5, and
                    much later on in Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews 5:2;
                    9:7, while earlier in the OT in Tobias 3:3, where the
                    connotation concerns the first moral degree of
                    ignorance, namely, to be ignorant of what is right
                    causing one to behave amiss. Reaching out to Jesus
                    for his salvation makes him like the virtuous man of
                    the Proverb cited above who stands firm, even on the
                    water. Peter, therefore, is the primary example of
                    discipleship, who through his passionate love of Jesus
                    and truth vigorously sets out with greatest efforts to
                    illuminate his mind dispelling ignorance, thereby
                    correcting his behavior in order to walk along the
                    firm, straight and narrow path of Jesus.

                    John crafts the Walking on the Water Narrative to
                    teach another aspect about Jesus rather than repeating
                    Luke�s Storm at Sea Narrative. The inspiration for
                    this narrative seems varied. One possible source is
                    the petrello, a condition at sea caused by turbulent
                    waves that agitate the under current forcing debris
                    and fish to the surface. The appearance of these fish
                    has been fancied by mariners as their ability to walk
                    on water. As we examine John's version of that story
                    we can see the same elements contained in each: (1)
                    the disciples board a boat; (2) a storm breaks out;
                    (3) Jesus is walking; (4) the apostles panic; (5)
                    Jesus calms them; (6) the apostles are amazed at the
                    power Jesus possess over nature when they find
                    themselves miraculously transported to their
                    destination. Moreover, ambulomancy, that is,
                    divination by walking was clearly alluded to in the
                    Walking on the Water Narrative which revealed Jesus as
                    God.

                    However, John may have been inspired to craft the
                    Walking on the Water Narrative from Homer 5. 51-83 in
                    his description of Odysseus� wreck of the raft during
                    the storm at sea.

                    And in one whirling gust the hurricane
                    Snapped the mast in twain; far into the main
                    Fell top and rigging; and beneath the surge
                    He sank, and after a while his head again

                    Out from the overwhelming wave could lift
                    For now his garments, fair Calypso�s gift,
                    Weighed him down: but yet he rose,

                    John may have seen the parallel of Odysseus to Peter
                    was strengthened in the aspect not only of the sinking
                    and rising on the water in the storm but also in their
                    heroism and personal sacrifice in living out their
                    sacred ideals. Odysseus left the sanctuary of the
                    island of Ogygia where he lived with the nymph Calypso
                    as his wife. Zeus sent Hermes to inform him he would
                    be allowed to leave the island and return to Ithaca
                    and return to his true bride Penelope. Calypso tried
                    to dissuade him by warning him that if he only knew
                    the dangers and troubles ahead he�d gladly stay with
                    her. Whereas, Peter sacrificially left his wife to
                    attend to his true bride given to him by Christ, the
                    Church. He courageously journeyed for the mission of
                    the Church despite the gravity and perilous danger
                    before him. This possible analogy between Peter and
                    Odysseus would have been the characterization
                    resulting from of a lifelong intimate friendship.
                    Another strong parallel between Odysseus and Peter is
                    made earlier by Luke at Peter's denial, which we shall
                    see later.

                    In his Storm at Sea Narrative Luke used Jesus
                    uttering a diasyrm, which is a rhetorical figure
                    expressing ridicule. Rather than repeating Luke�s
                    Storm at Sea Narrative, which focuses on the negative
                    aspect of the apostles shallow faith John rewrites it
                    to teach in a positive light about their faith.
                    John�s omission regarding the asking about their
                    faith, which would have been the sixth element of the
                    narrative, implies that Jesus� miraculous nature,
                    actions, and example empowered them with faith.

                    The evidence is that the Storm at Sea Narrative was
                    crafted before the Walking on the Water Narrative.
                    Luke is the only evangelist who inserts this narrative
                    into his Gospel as though it were a separate pericope
                    beginning it with the phrase �One day�. Matthew and
                    Mark use it to extend the narrative about the teaching
                    of the parables giving it a sense of time sequence.
                    Matthew says, �Then he got into the boat followed by
                    his disciples.� Whereas, Mark gets precise giving the
                    story a sense of accurate recollection and thereby
                    suggesting a greater authority when he says �With the
                    coming of evening that same day, he said to them, �Let
                    us cross over to the other side�. �

                    As we have already seen the Evangelists write
                    narratives based on well known illustrations from
                    established sources. Besides Jewish literature they
                    also used the secular texts of Greek and Roman
                    authors. Archilochus (fl. 648 B. C.) had written a
                    poem about Glaucus the famous fisherman who saw a dead
                    fish come back to life. The cryptogram of the word
                    fish in Greek ichthos as Jesus Christ God�s Son
                    Saviour was certainly known to Luke who used the term
                    similarly. Peter as Glaucus witnessed Jesus (the
                    fish) come back to life in his resurrection. They
                    would also be reminded of Archilochus� poem that
                    reads:

                    Look Glaucus! At the sea�s splashing waves already
                    mounting high,
                    Above the Cape of Gyrae storm clouds fill the sky,
                    Signs of an impending storm, brings panic upon us
                    nigh.

                    The Storm at Sea represents an event well understood
                    in antiquity. Everyone knew the danger and peril
                    brought on by a storm at sea. Pirries or squalls were
                    sudden storms that broke out in a flash. Isidorus
                    (fl. 1st century A.D.) wrote a poem about a
                    nondescript sea trader name Eteocles who tells us his
                    tale of how he perished at sea in a storm.

                    Eteocles was I, aspiring to be best,
                    In ocean trade lured from a farmer�s nest;
                    I crossed the ridges of the Tyrrhene crest,
                    Plunging ship and all to my eternal rest,
                    I was crushed by that sudden squall; for different
                    gales
                    Blow on threshing floors, and across ship sails.

                    Sudden squalls were greatly feared by the Hellenists
                    for their quick destructive power. The Greeks use the
                    terms aellaios and aellodromas to signify storm-swift,
                    an idea that has powerful imagery associated with it.
                    One of the Harpies is given the name Aellw,
                    "Storm-swift." This narrative of Luke's seems to have
                    employed aspects of Hellenistic polytheism, which
                    hailed the Roman Aeolus or Greek Astraeus. As the
                    father god of the winds and stars by his wife the
                    Roman Aurora or the Greek Eos, goddess of the dawn.
                    Aeolus, who lived in the cave of the winds on Mount
                    Haemon, Thrace, he was believed to pierce the cliffs
                    with his spear so that the winds could blow out of
                    them. Virgil Aeneid 1, relates the story of how Juno
                    had Aeolus unleash a storm against Aeneas� ship, which
                    Neptune calmed sending him to dock at Carthage. In
                    verse 539 Virgil relates how the constellation of
                    Orion brings the stormy weather.
                    In another legend, the citizens of Messenia beset by
                    hurricanes prayed to Athena to be delivered from them.
                    After the storms subsided they erected a temple in
                    her honor known as the Temple of Aqena Anemotis, that
                    is, Athena of the Winds.
                    Chaomancy was the divination by air, whereas,
                    austromancy was the art of divination from observation
                    of the winds. Aeromanteia was the Greek divination by
                    air. An aeromantis was a Greek air-diviner. Related
                    to this is botanomancy, the art of divination by wind
                    blown leaves. Furthermore, aeromancers were
                    weather-prophets who could divine the future by the
                    wind. According to the ancient art of anemography
                    wind directions were recorded and given specific
                    names. The ancients knew of the Halcyon Days a period
                    of fourteen days in which the sea was calm. Aratus of
                    Soli (315-240 B.C.) wrote Phenomena containing a
                    section on weather signs called Prognastica
                    (Prognwstika) or Diosemeia, translated into Latin by
                    Cicero. Arrian (fl. 1st half 2nd century B.C.) wrote
                    books on meteorology and a brief text on comets.
                    Andronicus of Cyrrhus (fl. 1st century B.C.) built the
                    octagonal tower of the winds decorated with figures of
                    the personifications of the winds. His brass Triton
                    mounted on the tower served as, perhaps, the earliest
                    known example of a weather vane. Vitruvius 1,6 tells
                    us about the amussium, a horizontal wheel for denoting
                    the direction of the wind. Pomponius Mela in A.D. 43
                    published maps where the surface of the globe was
                    divided into a Central Torrid Zone and North and South
                    Temperate Zone. Romans also spoke of the calores
                    austrini or atabulus the sirocco or hot winds; the
                    magistralis meaning the master wind, which was the
                    mistral or violent cold NW wind. They also described
                    some as incola aquilones, that is, native winds.
                    Cicero speaks about calamitosa tempesta or a
                    corn-levelling tempest from whence we get the term
                    calamity. Cicero also speaks about prodromus the NNE
                    wind that blew for eight days before the heliacal
                    rising of the Dog Star also called Sirus. There were
                    the etesiae or annual canicular day or dog day winds
                    that lasted forty days from mid July to mid September.
                    Plautus Rudens tells us about the star in Ursa Major
                    called Acturus, which rose in September and was
                    associated with the stormy weather of the autumnal
                    equinox. Lucretius 5. 741 calls them estia flabra
                    Aquilorium, which were a gentle and mild wind. On the
                    Iberian Peninsula the solano wind is known for being
                    very harsh an unendurable. It is known for being
                    severely hot and accompanied by dust. The harmattan
                    winds came from Africa across the Atlantic from
                    December through February. These winds are noted for
                    their aridity. The khamsin winds lasted for fifty
                    days in Egypt from the end of April until the
                    inundation of the Nile. The samiel winds are the hot
                    winds that blow out of Africa and Arabia periodically.
                    They even engaged in brontology, the science of
                    thunder, and brontomancy, divination by thunder. The
                    Greeks saw lightning as a phenomenon, which consumes
                    with fire thereby purifying. The phrase agelatos
                    mastix means to drive out a curse much the same way
                    that lightning purifies. Romans believed that a
                    Helena, that is, one bolt of lightning about the mast
                    of a ship during a storm was an ill omen that
                    signified the worst part of that storm was yet to
                    come. Two bolts of lightning called Castor and Pollux
                    was considered a good omen and sign of the cessation
                    of the storm. This is echoed in Horace, Odes 12,
                    27-32

                    But when the sons of Leda shed
                    their star-lamps on our vessel's head
                    the storm winds cease, the troubled spray
                    falls from the rocks, clouds flee away
                    and on the bosom of the deep
                    in peace the angry billows sleep.

                    Besides the appearance of the forked bolt of
                    lightning or comazant the Hellenists also understood
                    that squalls can be cut short like a typhoon or
                    ecnephia. Furthermore, the chief duty or function of
                    the Tritons who lived beneath the sea was to calm the
                    sea by blowing the conch. Belief in preternatural
                    control of the elements was widespread throughout the
                    Roman empire and even in Gallic mythology. The Gauls
                    had the Gallicenae which were nine virgin priestesses
                    of the Gallic oracle who by their charms could raise
                    the winds and waves of the sea.
                    The Roman Summanus was the god of thunderstorms.
                    However both the Romans and the Greeks had numerous
                    gods of the winds. The North wind was called Boreas
                    by the Greeks and Aquilo by the Romans. Thrascias was
                    the northerly wind but not that which blew due north,
                    the same as the Italian tramontane. The NE wind was
                    the Greek Caecias and Argest�s or Euraquilo by the
                    Romans, while the Roman Corus or Caurus was that of
                    the NW. However, it is called the Euroclydon in Acts
                    27:14, probably referring to a storm of the eastern
                    keys. The Greek Eurus was the god of the East and SE
                    winds so says Ovid because vires capit Eurus ab ortu,
                    that is, since it is drawn from the east. Volturnus
                    was another Roman god of the SE wind. It was the
                    North and Easterly winds that brought violent storms
                    at sea. The Roman Auster and the Greek Notus were the
                    South wind, and the Greek Afer and Roman Altanus were
                    that of the SW. Notus was the wind of fog and mists
                    dangerous to shepherds on mountains, mariners at sea,
                    but a friend to robbers and thieves. The Roman
                    Favonius or Greek Zephyrus was the West wind,
                    considered the mildest and gentlest of all coming at
                    the beginning of spring. According to Pliny, Libs was
                    the SW wind. Africus and Africanus were also SW
                    winds.
                    The Romans also had the Tempestates, goddesses of
                    storms and winds. Harpies were vultures with the
                    heads and breasts of women who were personifications
                    of whirlwinds and storms as is evidenced by their
                    names. These were the sisters of Iris the goddess of
                    the rainbow. Although Homer mentions only one Hesiod
                    cites two sisters A�llo "Storm-swift" the goddess of
                    the storm winds as we have already seen, and Ocypete
                    the goddess of the swift winds. Later Greek poets add
                    a third sister Celaeno the goddess of darkness.
                    Besides austromancy to give the wind and storm
                    meaning to Luke�s audience is the fact that the
                    monsoons were discovered about A.D. 40 with the Romans
                    sending fleets to India to laden their ships with
                    eastern goods. Hippalus, an Alexandrian Greek
                    captain, charted the periodicity of these monsoon
                    winds. From these records he was able to discover
                    that in certain seasons safe navigation was affordable
                    through the Indian Ocean. About A.D. 80 another
                    Alexandrian Greek sea captain wrote Periplus of the
                    Erythrean Sea, a handbook for mercantile ships along
                    the east African coast to India. However,
                    navigational laws predate these and are traceable to
                    those compiled by the Rhodians about 900 B.C. The
                    Roman merchant mariners would have well understood the
                    ferocity of this storm�s image and even would have
                    greatly appreciated Luke�s expression of Jesus�
                    divinity and absolute authority over the entire
                    physical cosmos.

                    The symbolism of the boat cut to the core of the
                    meaning of the Greek word apostoleis. These were, in
                    antiquity, the decemvir or ten commissioners chosen to
                    secure a naval expedition. This commission ranked
                    them as extraordinary authorities appointed by the
                    people. The apostles in the boat symbolized the
                    Church. The boat tossed about by the storm implied
                    that a great helmsman would be needed to steer it
                    through that stormy-wind.

                    �Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm�

                    ��Publius Syrus (1st century BC) Maxim 358

                    Matthew�s emphasis of Peter, as we have seen, meant
                    that he was that great helmsman. The helm itself was
                    also seen as the power of the ship. James 3:4
                    discusses this thusly:

                    � And think of ships: no matter how big they are, even
                    if a gale is driving them, the man at the helm can
                    steer them anywhere he likes by controlling a tiny
                    rudder.

                    The other side of the meaning of the �Storm at Sea�
                    was that God leads us into a safe harbor after testing
                    us through the perils of the storm. This image was a
                    well established one in antiquity as described in the
                    legend of Diomedes who raised a temple to Apollo
                    Epibaterus "Seafaring" in gratitude for a safe return
                    from a severe storm at sea. The storm image is also
                    expressed in a poem the Storm at Sea by Alcaeus. In
                    that poem Alcaeus writes about the fear, struggle, and
                    pain sailors heroically endured until they once more
                    brought their ship into a safe harbor. He writes:

                    The thunderous wind greatly disturbs me. On this my
                    side
                    a wave rolls up, on the other breaks another tide,
                    This dismal ship, �pon which we sail,
                    is tossed about by a tumultuous gale,

                    We�re frozen faint from the terrible blast:
                    and round the mast water rises fast.
                    All the sail is thin and worn,
                    With great holes gaping, rent and torn.

                    Mounting even greater still punishing with onsets a
                    new
                    Waves breaking high giving us much to do . . .
                    Patching up with haste this gaping side
                    Let us into a safe harbor ride!

                    Let not fear your strength deplete;
                    Before us lies a great task to complete.
                    With memories of our prior pain,
                    we�ve proved our manhood once again!


                    Alcaeus (625-575 B.C.), Fragment 120

                    This image was so strong that in Roman literature a
                    near parallel to Psalm 107 is found.

                    �Our ship of state, which recent storms have
                    threatened to destroy, has come safely to harbor at
                    last.�

                    �� Sophocles (495-406 B.C.), Antigone, l. 163


                    On this same theme is the Greek myth of the hero
                    Melicertes relates that when he was transformed into
                    the sea-god Palaemon he rode on the back of a dolphin
                    to Corinth. He was identical to the Roman Portunus,
                    the harbor god. It was only about fifteen years prior
                    to Luke's writing the Gospel that the emperor Claudius
                    began construction of the Imperial Harbor at Ostia, in
                    A.D. 42. Later he built a lighthouse for that harbor
                    in A.D. 52. This was probably inspired by that
                    designed by Sostratus of Cnidius built on the island
                    of Pharos, near the port of Alexandria, in the 4th
                    century B.C., reputed to have been some 450 feet in
                    height, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
                    However, in A.D. 62 Tacitus reported that some 200
                    ships carrying corn sank in that harbor during a
                    severe storm, in the final year of Faenius Rufus'
                    tenure as praefecti annonae, Prefect of the Corn. The
                    fear and dread ancient peoples had for storms at sea
                    is clearly evident. According to ancient science
                    nothing was seen more dreaded or powerful as the sea.
                    Hesiod in Works and Days, 663-694 advises his brother
                    regarding opportune days of good sailing weather for
                    nautical enterprises:

                    The best time to make a voyage is during the fifty
                    days after the summer solstice, as the end of summer
                    approaches. During this season you will neither wreck
                    your ship, nor will the sea drown your crew, unless of
                    course, Neptune lord of the earthquake chooses to, or
                    Jove lord of the immortals decides your fate, for the
                    question of good and evil are in their power. During
                    this season the winds are steady and the sea safe; you
                    can therefore confidently set out your ship into the
                    water relying on the winds with your cargo neatly
                    inside her; but return for home without delay; don�t
                    wait for new wine, autumn rain or any sign of winter
                    with its gales that the South wind raises when it
                    begins to blow after autumn�s many showers making the
                    sea dangerous once more. There is also a period of
                    time in spring when men make voyages; when the twigs
                    of the fig-tree begin to bud about the size of a
                    crow�s foot the sea is once again fit for sailing, but
                    a voyage at this season is dangerous; I do neither
                    advise it, nor approve of it, for the voyage will
                    surely be snagged with some sort of trouble.
                    Nevertheless, some men are foolish enough to set sail
                    even then since money is so necessary for us poor
                    mortals, but drowning is a horrible death; I bid you
                    therefore, weigh deeply all that I have said.
                    Moreover, do not put all of your things on any single
                    ship; leave the greater part behind, putting only a
                    smaller portion on board. It is a sad thing for
                    anyone to meet with a mishap on the high seas; and
                    sadder still if you have overloaded your wagon causing
                    the axle to break damaging your load; therefore, use
                    moderation in all things and let everything be done in
                    its due season.


                    The sea ruled by Neptune with his trident was awesome
                    and overwhelming to mortal men. This view was echoed
                    in the maxim of Themistocles as recorded by Cicero:

                    �He who commands the sea has command of everything.�

                    ��Themistocles (c. 528-462 B.C.), From Cicero, Ad
                    Atticum, x, 8.

                    The image of Jesus commanding the wind, storm and sea
                    was one that contemporary non-Christians could relate
                    to. In other words the apostles adapted the story to
                    speak loud and clear to their potential proselytes in
                    terms they already understood. Jesus, who
                    Themistocles could be seen prophesying about,
                    commanded everything, all of the physical world as its
                    Lord and ruler.

                    In conclusion, the Evangelists would adapt well-known
                    illustrations taken from both sacred and secular
                    literature and use them to express ideas about Jesus,
                    faith, salvation, and the Church. Their use of
                    secular or pagan literature hit on points well known
                    and readily recognized and identifiable to relate that
                    Jesus is the Lord and God of all. The evangelists
                    would take a Type 6 document and readapt it or rewrite
                    it altogether to express other theological ideas as
                    well. Finally, since Luke treats the story of the
                    "Storm at Sea� in a unique way, and never uses the
                    later adaptation as the Walking on the Water Narrative
                    it suggests that his Gospel was first chronologically.


                    With best regards,
                    John


                    =====
                    John N. Lupia, III
                    31 Norwich Drive
                    Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
                    Phone: (732) 341-8689
                    Email: jlupia2@...
                    Editor, Roman Catholic News
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

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                  • John Lupia
                    In the text below I caught an error from my previous post that read Luke where it should have read Matthew, as corrected below. On this same theme is the Greek
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 7, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In the text below I caught an error from my previous
                      post that read Luke where it should have read Matthew,
                      as corrected below.


                      On this same theme is the Greek myth of the hero
                      Melicertes relates that when he was transformed into
                      the sea-god Palaemon he rode on the back of a dolphin
                      to Corinth. He was identical to the Roman Portunus,
                      the harbor god. It was only about fifteen years prior
                      to Matthew's writing the Gospel that the emperor
                      Claudius
                      began construction of the Imperial Harbor at Ostia, in
                      A.D. 42.


                      For part I see
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/synoptic-l/message/9110


                      with best regards,
                      John


                      =====
                      John N. Lupia, III
                      31 Norwich Drive
                      Toms River, New Jersey 08757 USA
                      Phone: (732) 341-8689
                      Email: jlupia2@...
                      Editor, Roman Catholic News
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
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