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Re: [John_Lit] John the Baptist in the prologue

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  • kymhsm <khs@picknowl.com.au>
    Dear James,
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 3, 2003
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      Dear James,

      <<<One thing that, for me, makes sense of the position of John
      the Baptist in the prologue is that the Baptist is perhaps thought
      of as spanning the ages, as bearing witness both before and
      after the incarnation. This is possible if...the 'Word becoming
      flesh' and 'Spirit descending and remaining on him' refer to the
      same event.>>>

      I think this view creates more problems than it solves. Either you
      do not have the Word becoming incarnate until Jesus' baptism
      (close to a Gnostic position) or you have John claiming to have
      witnessed something when he was about six months old (Lk
      1:36 - if you are going to allow the witness of another gospel).
      Neither position seems tenable but I cannot see that what you
      are suggesting allows any other alternative. I would need some
      convincing that it is otherwise.

      Sincerely,

      Kym Smith
      Adelaide
      South Australia
      khs@...
    • Pete Phillips
      I m sorry but I think I have missed a connecton somewhere. Could someone explain how Word becoming flesh can be the equivalent of Spirit descending upon and
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 3, 2003
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        I'm sorry but I think I have missed a connecton somewhere. Could someone
        explain how Word becoming flesh can be the equivalent of Spirit descending
        upon and remaining on him? Are we suggesting that verse 14 is not about
        'Christmas' but rather the end of 'Lent'? Where does the incarnation
        happen? Isn't this just adoptionism then - the Word comes into Jesus at the
        point of indwelling of the Spirit?

        I need some help here, I think.

        Pete Phillips
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <khs@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:22 PM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John the Baptist in the prologue


        > Dear James,
        >
        > <<<One thing that, for me, makes sense of the position of John
        > the Baptist in the prologue is that the Baptist is perhaps thought
        > of as spanning the ages, as bearing witness both before and
        > after the incarnation. This is possible if...the 'Word becoming
        > flesh' and 'Spirit descending and remaining on him' refer to the
        > same event.>>>
        >
        > I think this view creates more problems than it solves. Either you
        > do not have the Word becoming incarnate until Jesus' baptism
        > (close to a Gnostic position) or you have John claiming to have
        > witnessed something when he was about six months old (Lk
        > 1:36 - if you are going to allow the witness of another gospel).
        > Neither position seems tenable but I cannot see that what you
        > are suggesting allows any other alternative. I would need some
        > convincing that it is otherwise.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        >
        > Kym Smith
        > Adelaide
        > South Australia
        > khs@...
        >
        >
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      • Big_Mart_98 <big_mart_98@yahoo.com>
        ... someone ... descending ... about ... incarnation ... Jesus at the ... People in the period in question were not too bothered about logical inconsistencies.
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 4, 2003
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          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Phillips"
          <p.m.phillips@c...> wrote:
          > I'm sorry but I think I have missed a connecton somewhere. Could
          someone
          > explain how Word becoming flesh can be the equivalent of Spirit
          descending
          > upon and remaining on him? Are we suggesting that verse 14 is not
          about
          > 'Christmas' but rather the end of 'Lent'? Where does the
          incarnation
          > happen? Isn't this just adoptionism then - the Word comes into
          Jesus at the
          > point of indwelling of the Spirit?
          >
          > I need some help here, I think.
          >
          People in the period in question were not too bothered about logical
          inconsistencies. Where the NT writers were concerned, they did not
          expect anyone to be here in 2,000 years, and they had no way of
          anticipating the rigorous thinking of at least some of them.
          Martin Edwards.
        • Paul Schmehl
          ... From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John the Baptist
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 4, 2003
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <big_mart_98@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:45 AM
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John the Baptist in the prologue
            > >
            > People in the period in question were not too bothered about logical
            > inconsistencies. Where the NT writers were concerned, they did not
            > expect anyone to be here in 2,000 years, and they had no way of
            > anticipating the rigorous thinking of at least some of them.
            >
            Do you have any evidence to support this view? I mean real evidence?
            Documents? Letters? Texts?

            IMHO people haven't changed one iota from "the beginning" until now. As
            Ecclesiastes says, "There is nothing new under the sun. All is vanity."

            Paul Schmehl
            pschmehl@...
            http://www.utdallas.edu/~pauls/
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