Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-li ke Composition

Expand Messages
  • kymhsm <khs@picknowl.com.au>
    Dear Mary,
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 2, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Mary,

      <<< I have also noted strong similarlities - at least structurally -
      between Genesis 1 and the Prologue... my questions began
      with the double use of John the Baptist>>>

      John the Baptist is introduced into the Prologue precisely
      because of the Genesis structure. The reason John is
      mentioned in what seems a most inappropriate place is
      because with him - though it is not stated till later in the first
      chapter – is the next part of the Genesis pattern. John had more
      to say about the Word / Jesus, and he returned to it, but his
      mentioning John exactly where he did in the first part of the
      Prologue - and he returns to him in the second part to ensure
      that he is still in mind – is because what the Baptist witnessed
      is
      what John used to continue the Genesis structure. What John
      had to match next was, `and the Spirit of God was moving over
      the face of the waters.' It was John who saw the Spirit of God
      hovering/moving/descending over the waters of the Jordan. See
      an abbreviated comparison below.

      GEN - [1] In the beginning
      JOHN - [1] In the beginning
      GEN - God
      JOHN - was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
      was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God;
      GEN - created the heavens and the earth.
      JOHN - [3] all things were made through him, and without him
      was not anything made that was made.
      GEN - [2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness
      was upon the face of the deep;
      JOHN - [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5]
      The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not
      overcome it.
      GEN - and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the
      waters.
      JOHN - [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was
      John. [7] He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that
      all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came
      to bear witness to the light…. [31] I myself did not know him;
      but
      for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to
      Israel." [32] And John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as
      a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. [33] I myself did not
      know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
      `He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he
      who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' [34] And I have seen and have
      borne witness that this is the Son of God."

      Sincerely,

      Kym Smith
      Adelaide
      South Australia
      khs@...
    • Thomas W Butler
      Dear Kym and Mary, As both of you know, it seems to me that there is yet another reason for the close attention being given in first five verses in the Prolog
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 2, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Kym and Mary,
        As both of you know, it seems to me that there is yet another
        reason for the close attention being given in first five verses in the
        Prolog of the Fourth Gospel to the first five verses of Genesis (and
        thus to the Torah). That is that the Fourth Gospel, particularly
        chapters 1-13, makes extensive use of Mosaic oracles as signs.
        I have shown how one can define the meaning of these signs by
        locating identical symbols or symbolic language (via the Septuagint
        version) in the Torah.
        The opening of the Prolog "In the beginning..." is an unmistakable
        reference to the opening three words of the Torah. I see this as a
        sign in itself, pointing the reader to the Torah. If the Fourth Gospel
        was used as a text book within the Johannine community, it would
        take very little guidance from a teacher within that community to
        start those reading that text on a learning process that would
        link this gospel with the ancient Law.
        Your work, Kym, reveals this dynamic from a structural point of
        view. I have provided a concordance of Mosaic signs found in the
        Fourth Gospel, which takes a word-study approach. Mary, you
        seem to focus upon the role of the narrative as it relates to the
        temple language / metaphors / symbols of the Torah. While I
        appreciate that your study is focused specifically upon the temple,
        it seems to me that some of what you observe about the narrative
        connection between the Fourth Gospel and the temple-related
        texts of the Torah could be applied to other elements of the
        Mosaic narrative as well, such as the festivals of sacrifice and
        the priesthood.
        At the Johannine Studies section of the SBL annual meeting, it
        was suggested that scholars of the Fourth Gospel need a new
        framework from which to study it. I believe the so-called Reader-
        Response Criticism as presented by R. Allen Culpepper in Anatomy
        of the Fourth Gospel: A Study in Literary Design is such a framework.
        The observations that you and I have made, Kym and Mary, seem
        to me to fit within that sort of framework.

        Yours in Christ's service,
        Tom Butler


        On Sun, 02 Feb 2003 23:05:42 -0000 "kymhsm <khs@...>"
        <khs@...> writes:
        > Dear Mary,
        >
        > <<< I have also noted strong similarlities - at least structurally -
        >
        > between Genesis 1 and the Prologue... my questions began
        > with the double use of John the Baptist>>>
        >
        > John the Baptist is introduced into the Prologue precisely
        > because of the Genesis structure. The reason John is
        > mentioned in what seems a most inappropriate place is
        > because with him - though it is not stated till later in the first
        > chapter – is the next part of the Genesis pattern. John had more
        > to say about the Word / Jesus, and he returned to it, but his
        > mentioning John exactly where he did in the first part of the
        > Prologue - and he returns to him in the second part to ensure
        > that he is still in mind – is because what the Baptist witnessed is
        > what John used to continue the Genesis structure. What John
        > had to match next was, `and the Spirit of God was moving over
        > the face of the waters.' It was John who saw the Spirit of God
        > hovering/moving/descending over the waters of the Jordan. See
        > an abbreviated comparison below.
        >
        > GEN - [1] In the beginning
        > JOHN - [1] In the beginning
        > GEN - God
        > JOHN - was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
        > was God. [2] He was in the beginning with God;
        > GEN - created the heavens and the earth.
        > JOHN - [3] all things were made through him, and without him
        > was not anything made that was made.
        > GEN - [2] The earth was without form and void, and darkness
        > was upon the face of the deep;
        > JOHN - [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5]
        >
        > The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not
        > overcome it.
        > GEN - and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the
        > waters.
        > JOHN - [6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was
        > John. [7] He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that
        > all might believe through him. [8] He was not the light, but came
        > to bear witness to the light…. [31] I myself did not know him;
        > but
        > for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to
        > Israel." [32] And John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as
        > a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. [33] I myself did not
        > know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me,
        > `He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he
        > who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' [34] And I have seen and have
        > borne witness that this is the Son of God."
        >
        > Sincerely,
        >
        > Kym Smith
        > Adelaide
        > South Australia
        > khs@...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.