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Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like Composition to the Word

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  • Peter Phillips
    Frank, You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions of the possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two questions as a
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 23, 2003
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      Frank,
      You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions of the
      possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two questions as
      a first toss of the coin, but I hope to have a fuller look at it
      tomorrow...:

      What Greek metre is this if it is a hymn?
      If there is no metre it is prose and so is not a hymn!

      When does anti in v.17 ever mean upon - anti = instead of or in place of.

      Pete Phillips
      Cliff College
      Sheffield, UK

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
      Composition to the Word


      > INTRODUCTION
      >
      > It has long been recognized that much of John 1:1-18 is likely based on
      > hymn-like composition to the Word. This is the proposed re-construction
      of
      > it as given by R.A. Brown in The Gospel According to John (Vol. 1, pp.
      3-4):
      >
      > First Strophe
      > 1 In the beginning was the Word;
      > the Word was in God's presence,
      > and the Word was God.
      > 2 He was present with God in the beginning.
      >
      > Second Strophe
      > 3 Through him all things came into being,
      > and apart from him not a thing came to be.
      > 4 That which had come to be in him was life,
      > and this life was the light of men.
      > 5 The light shines on in the darkness,
      > for the darkness did not overcome it.
      >
      > Third Strophe
      > 10 He was in the world,
      > and the world was made by him;
      > yet the world did not recognize him.
      > 11 To his own he came;
      > yet his own people did not accept him.
      > 12 But all those who did accept him
      > he empowered to become God's children.
      >
      > Fourth Strophe
      > 14 And the Word became flesh
      > and made his dwelling among us.
      > And we have seen his glory,
      > the glory of an only Son coming from the Father,
      > filled with enduring love.
      > 16 And of his fullness
      > we have all had a share--
      > love in place of love.
      >
      > I suggest that the following changes be made to this proposed
      > re-construction by Brown:
      > 1. The addition of verse nine. As R.A. Brown notes (Ibid., p. 9), some
      have
      > taken it to be a part of the original composition and give it this
      > structure:
      > He was the real light
      > that gives light to every man;
      > he was coming into the world.
      > 2. The addition of verse 17
      > 3. The division of the composition into three sections, each consisting of
      > ten lines and each containing two strophes of three lines each and two
      > strophes of two lines each:
      > a. The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
      > b. The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
      > c. The Word becomes Flesh.
      >
      > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN THE GREEK
      >
      > Section A The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
      >
      > En Arche en ho Logos,
      > Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
      > Kai Theos en ho Logos.
      >
      > Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
      > Panta di autou egenato,
      > Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.
      >
      > Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
      > Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.
      >
      > Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
      > Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.
      >
      > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word
      >
      > En to Phws to alethinon
      > ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon erchoumenon
      > eis ton kosmon,
      >
      > En tou kosmw en,
      > Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
      > Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,
      >
      > Eis to idia elthen
      > Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.
      >
      > Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
      > Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.
      >
      > Section C The Word Becomes Flesh
      >
      > Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
      > Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
      > Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,
      >
      > Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
      > Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.
      >
      > Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
      > hemeis pantes elabomen,
      > Kai charin anti charitos,
      >
      > Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
      > He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.
      >
      > Note that, in the third section, where the Word becomes flesh, the strophe

      > pattern changes from the previous 3/3/2/2 to 3/2/3/2.
      >
      > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN TRANSLATION
      >
      > Here is the proposed re-constuction of the postulated hymn-like
      composition
      > in a rough English translation:
      >
      > Section A The Word in the Beginning of Time and Space
      >
      > In the Beginning was the Word,
      > And the Word was with God,
      > And the Word was God.
      >
      > He was in the Beginning with God,
      > Everything though him came into being,
      > And without him came into being no thing.
      >
      > That which came into being In him was Life,
      > And the Life was the Light of mankind.
      >
      > And the Light shines in the Darkness,
      > And the Darkness did not overcome it.
      >
      > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
      >
      > The true Light
      > That enlightens mankind
      > Was coming into the World.
      >
      > He was within the World,
      > And the World came into being through him,
      > And the World knew him not.
      >
      > To his own he came,
      > And his own received him not.
      >
      > But as many as received him
      > He gave to them authority to be children of God,
      >
      > Section C The Word becomes Flesh
      >
      > And the Logos became flesh
      > And tabernacled among us.
      > And we beheld his glory:
      >
      > A glory as of a one of a kind with a Father,
      > Full of Grace and Truth.
      >
      > And of his Fullness
      > We have all received,
      > Grace upon grace:
      >
      > For the Law was given through Moses,
      > And the Grace and the Truth came through Christ Jesus.
      >
      > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated hymn-like
      > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it? Also, do
      you
      > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
      >
      > Frank McCoy
      > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
      > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • Pete Phillips
      There is so much to say about this - see the countless versions in countless commentaries! How can it be a hymn when there is no metre? If there is a metre,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 23, 2003
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        There is so much to say about this - see the countless versions in countless
        commentaries!

        How can it be a hymn when there is no metre? If there is a metre, what is
        it? If a metre has to be uncovered because the vocab has been changed then
        what is the proposed vocab for the original Urprolog?

        On the details, and for starters, why translate anti in verse 17 as 'upon'
        when it means 'instead of' or 'in place of'.

        Why put v.9 and 17 back but not v.13? Where is all the rationale behind
        this lot. Why start with Brown in any case? What's the reason for the
        whole exercise?

        The proposal could do with spelling out and explaining.

        Pete Phillips
        Cliff College,
        Sheffield UK
      • Ramsey Michaels
        The question of whether the so-called Prolog is poetry is an important one. When it is read as poetry, the sections that are patently prose, such as vv 6-8
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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          The question of whether the so-called "Prolog" is poetry is an important
          one. When it is read as poetry, the sections that are patently prose, such
          as vv 6-8 and 15 are viewed as "interpolations" and sometimes virtually
          dismissed. But if it is prose, then they are not interpolations, and the
          whole thing reads differently.

          For example, verse 6 looks very much like the narrative beginning to the
          Gospel, a beginning not unlike the beginning of Mark. This goes against the
          conventional wisdom that verse 19 is the narrative beginning. If the
          narrative begins at verse 6 and not verse 19, then the real "prolog" (or
          preface, or introduction, call it what you will) consists of vv 1-5, not vv
          1-18.

          In short, perhaps the search for poetry or a hymnic source behind the text
          as we have it has skewed our reading of the existing text. Perhaps what
          conventional wisdom has regarded as "interpolations" are actually the key to
          understanding the whole.

          Ramsey Michaels


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Peter Phillips" <p.m.phillips@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:55 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
          Composition to the Word


          > Frank,
          > You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions of the
          > possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two questions
          as
          > a first toss of the coin, but I hope to have a fuller look at it
          > tomorrow...:
          >
          > What Greek metre is this if it is a hymn?
          > If there is no metre it is prose and so is not a hymn!
          >
          > When does anti in v.17 ever mean upon - anti = instead of or in place of.
          >
          > Pete Phillips
          > Cliff College
          > Sheffield, UK
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
          > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:55 PM
          > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
          Hymn-like
          > Composition to the Word
          >
          >
          > > INTRODUCTION
          > >
          > > It has long been recognized that much of John 1:1-18 is likely based on
          > > hymn-like composition to the Word. This is the proposed re-construction
          > of
          > > it as given by R.A. Brown in The Gospel According to John (Vol. 1, pp.
          > 3-4):
          > >
          > > First Strophe
          > > 1 In the beginning was the Word;
          > > the Word was in God's presence,
          > > and the Word was God.
          > > 2 He was present with God in the beginning.
          > >
          > > Second Strophe
          > > 3 Through him all things came into being,
          > > and apart from him not a thing came to be.
          > > 4 That which had come to be in him was life,
          > > and this life was the light of men.
          > > 5 The light shines on in the darkness,
          > > for the darkness did not overcome it.
          > >
          > > Third Strophe
          > > 10 He was in the world,
          > > and the world was made by him;
          > > yet the world did not recognize him.
          > > 11 To his own he came;
          > > yet his own people did not accept him.
          > > 12 But all those who did accept him
          > > he empowered to become God's children.
          > >
          > > Fourth Strophe
          > > 14 And the Word became flesh
          > > and made his dwelling among us.
          > > And we have seen his glory,
          > > the glory of an only Son coming from the Father,
          > > filled with enduring love.
          > > 16 And of his fullness
          > > we have all had a share--
          > > love in place of love.
          > >
          > > I suggest that the following changes be made to this proposed
          > > re-construction by Brown:
          > > 1. The addition of verse nine. As R.A. Brown notes (Ibid., p. 9), some
          > have
          > > taken it to be a part of the original composition and give it this
          > > structure:
          > > He was the real light
          > > that gives light to every man;
          > > he was coming into the world.
          > > 2. The addition of verse 17
          > > 3. The division of the composition into three sections, each consisting
          of
          > > ten lines and each containing two strophes of three lines each and two
          > > strophes of two lines each:
          > > a. The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
          > > b. The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
          > > c. The Word becomes Flesh.
          > >
          > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN THE GREEK
          > >
          > > Section A The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
          > >
          > > En Arche en ho Logos,
          > > Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
          > > Kai Theos en ho Logos.
          > >
          > > Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
          > > Panta di autou egenato,
          > > Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.
          > >
          > > Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
          > > Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.
          > >
          > > Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
          > > Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.
          > >
          > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word
          > >
          > > En to Phws to alethinon
          > > ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon erchoumenon
          > > eis ton kosmon,
          > >
          > > En tou kosmw en,
          > > Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
          > > Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,
          > >
          > > Eis to idia elthen
          > > Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.
          > >
          > > Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
          > > Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.
          > >
          > > Section C The Word Becomes Flesh
          > >
          > > Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
          > > Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
          > > Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,
          > >
          > > Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
          > > Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.
          > >
          > > Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
          > > hemeis pantes elabomen,
          > > Kai charin anti charitos,
          > >
          > > Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
          > > He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.
          > >
          > > Note that, in the third section, where the Word becomes flesh, the
          strophe
          >
          > > pattern changes from the previous 3/3/2/2 to 3/2/3/2.
          > >
          > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN TRANSLATION
          > >
          > > Here is the proposed re-constuction of the postulated hymn-like
          > composition
          > > in a rough English translation:
          > >
          > > Section A The Word in the Beginning of Time and Space
          > >
          > > In the Beginning was the Word,
          > > And the Word was with God,
          > > And the Word was God.
          > >
          > > He was in the Beginning with God,
          > > Everything though him came into being,
          > > And without him came into being no thing.
          > >
          > > That which came into being In him was Life,
          > > And the Life was the Light of mankind.
          > >
          > > And the Light shines in the Darkness,
          > > And the Darkness did not overcome it.
          > >
          > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
          > >
          > > The true Light
          > > That enlightens mankind
          > > Was coming into the World.
          > >
          > > He was within the World,
          > > And the World came into being through him,
          > > And the World knew him not.
          > >
          > > To his own he came,
          > > And his own received him not.
          > >
          > > But as many as received him
          > > He gave to them authority to be children of God,
          > >
          > > Section C The Word becomes Flesh
          > >
          > > And the Logos became flesh
          > > And tabernacled among us.
          > > And we beheld his glory:
          > >
          > > A glory as of a one of a kind with a Father,
          > > Full of Grace and Truth.
          > >
          > > And of his Fullness
          > > We have all received,
          > > Grace upon grace:
          > >
          > > For the Law was given through Moses,
          > > And the Grace and the Truth came through Christ Jesus.
          > >
          > > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated hymn-like
          > > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it? Also, do
          > you
          > > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
          > >
          > > Frank McCoy
          > > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
          > > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • fmmccoy
          ... From: Jack Kilmon To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
            Composition to the Word


            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:55 AM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
            Hymn-like
            > Composition to the Word
            >
            >
            > <snip for brevity>
            >
            > > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated hymn-like
            > > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it? Also, do
            > you
            > > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
            >
            > Frank, you may want to divide the antiphonal responses.


            Dear Jack Kilmon:.

            I agree that this postulated composition of three sections (with each
            section consisting of two three line strophes and two two line strophes)
            there are statements and responses. However, I think a classic situation,
            of alternating statements and resonses, is perhaps
            over-simplistic.

            What I have in mind is that it was something to be spoken during a service,
            with the first line of each strophe to be spoken by the leader. In the case
            of a three line strophe, what I envison is that the second line was to be
            spoken by men and the third line was to be spoken by women. In the case of
            a two line strophe, what I envision is that the second line was to be spoken
            by both the men and women. So, with L = leader, M = men, and W = women, we
            have:
            Sect.A Sect B Sect C Total
            Strophe 1
            line 1 L L L 3L
            line 2 M M M 3M
            line 3 W W W 3W

            Strophe 2
            line 1 L L L 3L
            line 2 M M M+W 3M+1W
            line 3 W W - 2W

            Strophe 3
            line l L L L 3L
            li ne 2 M+W M+W M 3M+2W
            line 3 - - W 1W

            Strophe 4
            line 1 L L L 3L
            line 2 M+W M+W M+W 3M+3W
            line 3 - - - -

            In the totals, notice that the first line is 3L for each strophe. However,
            in the second line, while M is 3 for each strophe, we have a progression in
            W from 0 in strophe 1 to 1 in strophe 2 to 2 in strophe 3 and to 3 in
            strophe 4. In the third line, L progressively decreases from 3 in strophe 1
            to 2 in strophe 2 to 1 in strophe 3 and 0 in strophe 4..

            Note, too, that, for the over-all totals, L = 12, M = 12, and W = 12. So
            each person, in the recitation of this proposed liturgical piece, speaks
            twelve lines.

            Regards,

            Frank McCoy
            1809 N. English Apt. 17
            Maplewood, MN USA 55109
          • fmmccoy
            ... From: McGrath, James To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:14 PM Subject: [John_Lit] A
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "McGrath, James" <jfmcgrat@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:14 PM
              Subject: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
              Composition to the Word


              > Just a question more than a suggestion. Do you see a chiastic structure
              > in the hymn? I agree about the parallel between pre-incarnate and
              > incarnate activity. A chiastic structure sees a parallelism between the
              > two. Just wondering!

              Dear James F. McGrath:

              No.

              In the first section of the postulated composition, the focus is on the Word
              in the period of the Creation. In the second section, the focus is on the
              pre-incarnational spiritual activiity of the Word in the Cosmos and in the
              realm of human affairs. In the third section, the focus is on the Word
              become flesh as the Christ. That is to say, it is temporally linear in
              structure. Further, it is also linear in that it proceeds from the Word
              creating the Cosmos as something apart from himself in the first section, to
              the Words spiritually entering and permeating the Cosmos in the second
              section, to the Word becoming a fleshly being who is an integral part of the
              Cosmos in the third section.

              ..
              Regards,

              Frank McCoy
              1809 N. English Apt. 17
              Maplewood, MN USA 55109
            • Peter Phillips
              The thing is what is a chiasm - see the extensive literature on chiastic structures both in Staley s Print s First Kiss, Charles Homer Giblin article -in fact
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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                The thing is what is a chiasm - see the extensive literature on chiastic
                structures both in Staley's Print's First Kiss, Charles Homer Giblin
                article -in fact here is one of my footnotes on the subject to give you some
                more references:

                Ignace de la Potterie, 'Structure du Prologue de Saint Jean', NTS 30 (1984),
                pp.354-387; Charles Homer Giblin, 'Two Complementary Literary Structures in
                John 1:1-18', JBL 104/1 (1985), pp.87-103. See also, Herman Ridderbos, 'The
                Structure and Scope of the Prologue of the Gospel of John', NT 8 (1966),
                pp.180-201; Alan Culpepper, 'The Pivot of John's Prologue', NTS 27
                (1980-81), pp.1-31; Paul Lamarche, 'The Prologue of John' in The
                Interpretation of John, J. Ashton (ed.), pp.36ff.; Jeff Staley, 'The
                Structure of John's Prologue: Its Implications for the Gospel's Narrative
                Structure', CBQ 48, 1986, pp.241-264 but also see The Print's First Kiss,
                pp.50ff. For Staley's diagrammatic attempt to impose a concentric structure
                of the whole gospel, see pp.72-2. In fact, the possible permutations are
                legion with most commentators offering their own perspective: Miller,
                Salvation-History, pp.19ff; Schnackenburg, John, p.239; Brown, John, p.6;
                Haenchen, John, p.110; Boismard, Prologue, p.28

                But a chiasm in ancient literature is not nearly as complicated as lots of
                these articles make a chiasm out to be. In an oral culture chiasm needs to
                be pretty striking to be picked up. And of course the NT was written for a
                primarily oral culture, wasn't it?

                Pete Phillips
                Cliff College,
                Sheffield, UK


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:56 PM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
                Composition to the Word


                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "McGrath, James" <jfmcgrat@...>
                > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:14 PM
                > Subject: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
                > Composition to the Word
                >
                >
                > > Just a question more than a suggestion. Do you see a chiastic structure
                > > in the hymn? I agree about the parallel between pre-incarnate and
                > > incarnate activity. A chiastic structure sees a parallelism between the
                > > two. Just wondering!
                >
                > Dear James F. McGrath:
                >
                > No.
                >
                > In the first section of the postulated composition, the focus is on the
                Word
                > in the period of the Creation. In the second section, the focus is on the
                > pre-incarnational spiritual activiity of the Word in the Cosmos and in the
                > realm of human affairs. In the third section, the focus is on the Word
                > become flesh as the Christ. That is to say, it is temporally linear in
                > structure. Further, it is also linear in that it proceeds from the Word
                > creating the Cosmos as something apart from himself in the first section,
                to
                > the Words spiritually entering and permeating the Cosmos in the second
                > section, to the Word becoming a fleshly being who is an integral part of
                the
                > Cosmos in the third section.
                >
                > ..
                > Regards,
                >
                > Frank McCoy
                > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
                > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                >
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                >
                >
                >
              • Paul Anderson
                Excellent points, Ramsey; I ve been wondering lately about the possibility of the poetic sections of the Prologue being expansions on the Baptist s testimony
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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                  Excellent points, Ramsey; I've been wondering lately about the possibility of the poetic sections of the Prologue being expansions on the Baptist's testimony and memory.

                  Paul Anderson

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Ramsey Michaels [mailto:profram@...]
                  Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:30 AM
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                  Hymn-like Composition to the Word


                  The question of whether the so-called "Prolog" is poetry is an important
                  one. When it is read as poetry, the sections that are patently prose, such
                  as vv 6-8 and 15 are viewed as "interpolations" and sometimes virtually
                  dismissed. But if it is prose, then they are not interpolations, and the
                  whole thing reads differently.

                  For example, verse 6 looks very much like the narrative beginning to the
                  Gospel, a beginning not unlike the beginning of Mark. This goes against the
                  conventional wisdom that verse 19 is the narrative beginning. If the
                  narrative begins at verse 6 and not verse 19, then the real "prolog" (or
                  preface, or introduction, call it what you will) consists of vv 1-5, not vv
                  1-18.

                  In short, perhaps the search for poetry or a hymnic source behind the text
                  as we have it has skewed our reading of the existing text. Perhaps what
                  conventional wisdom has regarded as "interpolations" are actually the key to
                  understanding the whole.

                  Ramsey Michaels


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Peter Phillips" <p.m.phillips@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:55 PM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
                  Composition to the Word


                  > Frank,
                  > You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions of the
                  > possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two questions
                  as
                  > a first toss of the coin, but I hope to have a fuller look at it
                  > tomorrow...:
                  >
                  > What Greek metre is this if it is a hymn?
                  > If there is no metre it is prose and so is not a hymn!
                  >
                  > When does anti in v.17 ever mean upon - anti = instead of or in place of.
                  >
                  > Pete Phillips
                  > Cliff College
                  > Sheffield, UK
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                  > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:55 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                  Hymn-like
                  > Composition to the Word
                  >
                  >
                  > > INTRODUCTION
                  > >
                  > > It has long been recognized that much of John 1:1-18 is likely based on
                  > > hymn-like composition to the Word. This is the proposed re-construction
                  > of
                  > > it as given by R.A. Brown in The Gospel According to John (Vol. 1, pp.
                  > 3-4):
                  > >
                  > > First Strophe
                  > > 1 In the beginning was the Word;
                  > > the Word was in God's presence,
                  > > and the Word was God.
                  > > 2 He was present with God in the beginning.
                  > >
                  > > Second Strophe
                  > > 3 Through him all things came into being,
                  > > and apart from him not a thing came to be.
                  > > 4 That which had come to be in him was life,
                  > > and this life was the light of men.
                  > > 5 The light shines on in the darkness,
                  > > for the darkness did not overcome it.
                  > >
                  > > Third Strophe
                  > > 10 He was in the world,
                  > > and the world was made by him;
                  > > yet the world did not recognize him.
                  > > 11 To his own he came;
                  > > yet his own people did not accept him.
                  > > 12 But all those who did accept him
                  > > he empowered to become God's children.
                  > >
                  > > Fourth Strophe
                  > > 14 And the Word became flesh
                  > > and made his dwelling among us.
                  > > And we have seen his glory,
                  > > the glory of an only Son coming from the Father,
                  > > filled with enduring love.
                  > > 16 And of his fullness
                  > > we have all had a share--
                  > > love in place of love.
                  > >
                  > > I suggest that the following changes be made to this proposed
                  > > re-construction by Brown:
                  > > 1. The addition of verse nine. As R.A. Brown notes (Ibid., p. 9), some
                  > have
                  > > taken it to be a part of the original composition and give it this
                  > > structure:
                  > > He was the real light
                  > > that gives light to every man;
                  > > he was coming into the world.
                  > > 2. The addition of verse 17
                  > > 3. The division of the composition into three sections, each consisting
                  of
                  > > ten lines and each containing two strophes of three lines each and two
                  > > strophes of two lines each:
                  > > a. The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                  > > b. The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
                  > > c. The Word becomes Flesh.
                  > >
                  > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN THE GREEK
                  > >
                  > > Section A The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                  > >
                  > > En Arche en ho Logos,
                  > > Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
                  > > Kai Theos en ho Logos.
                  > >
                  > > Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
                  > > Panta di autou egenato,
                  > > Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.
                  > >
                  > > Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
                  > > Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.
                  > >
                  > > Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
                  > > Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.
                  > >
                  > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word
                  > >
                  > > En to Phws to alethinon
                  > > ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon erchoumenon
                  > > eis ton kosmon,
                  > >
                  > > En tou kosmw en,
                  > > Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
                  > > Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,
                  > >
                  > > Eis to idia elthen
                  > > Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.
                  > >
                  > > Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
                  > > Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.
                  > >
                  > > Section C The Word Becomes Flesh
                  > >
                  > > Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
                  > > Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
                  > > Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,
                  > >
                  > > Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
                  > > Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.
                  > >
                  > > Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
                  > > hemeis pantes elabomen,
                  > > Kai charin anti charitos,
                  > >
                  > > Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
                  > > He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.
                  > >
                  > > Note that, in the third section, where the Word becomes flesh, the
                  strophe
                  >
                  > > pattern changes from the previous 3/3/2/2 to 3/2/3/2.
                  > >
                  > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN TRANSLATION
                  > >
                  > > Here is the proposed re-constuction of the postulated hymn-like
                  > composition
                  > > in a rough English translation:
                  > >
                  > > Section A The Word in the Beginning of Time and Space
                  > >
                  > > In the Beginning was the Word,
                  > > And the Word was with God,
                  > > And the Word was God.
                  > >
                  > > He was in the Beginning with God,
                  > > Everything though him came into being,
                  > > And without him came into being no thing.
                  > >
                  > > That which came into being In him was Life,
                  > > And the Life was the Light of mankind.
                  > >
                  > > And the Light shines in the Darkness,
                  > > And the Darkness did not overcome it.
                  > >
                  > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
                  > >
                  > > The true Light
                  > > That enlightens mankind
                  > > Was coming into the World.
                  > >
                  > > He was within the World,
                  > > And the World came into being through him,
                  > > And the World knew him not.
                  > >
                  > > To his own he came,
                  > > And his own received him not.
                  > >
                  > > But as many as received him
                  > > He gave to them authority to be children of God,
                  > >
                  > > Section C The Word becomes Flesh
                  > >
                  > > And the Logos became flesh
                  > > And tabernacled among us.
                  > > And we beheld his glory:
                  > >
                  > > A glory as of a one of a kind with a Father,
                  > > Full of Grace and Truth.
                  > >
                  > > And of his Fullness
                  > > We have all received,
                  > > Grace upon grace:
                  > >
                  > > For the Law was given through Moses,
                  > > And the Grace and the Truth came through Christ Jesus.
                  > >
                  > > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated hymn-like
                  > > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it? Also, do
                  > you
                  > > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
                  > >
                  > > Frank McCoy
                  > > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
                  > > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >


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                • Paul Anderson
                  I like this, Tom; I encourage you to get an article out on it. It also makes me want to go back to Bultmann s commentary and see what he was doing with John
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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                    I like this, Tom; I encourage you to get an article out on it. It also makes me want to go back to Bultmann's commentary and see what he was doing with John the Baptist and the origin of some of the Johannine Jesus sayings. We don't see them as Gnostic proper any more, but might there have been a baptistic memory that gets developed cosmologically within the Johannine worship situation? I might buy something like that, Tom.

                    Paul

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Thatcher, Tom [mailto:tom.thatcher@...]
                    Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:32 AM
                    To: 'johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com'
                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                    Hymn-like Composition to the Word


                    Paul et. al.,

                    Further to Paul's point, let me observe that the whole Prologue is
                    structured around three verbs in the Greek text--en (past tense of eimi;
                    "was"); forms of ginomai ("became"); and forms of erchomai ("came")--sorry
                    about the lack of Greek fonts here. The dominance of these three verbs in
                    the architecture of the passage is obvious even with a casual skim down the
                    page. I think that that the juxtaposition of these three verbs has
                    significant theological implications in this passage, but for now let me
                    limit my remarks to the tradition-history question.

                    Very notably, all three of these verbs appear together in the Baptist's
                    statement at 1:15 about "the one coming behind me," which involves several
                    significant Christological implications--including Jesus' pre-existence and
                    his relationship to the Baptizer. To thicken the plot a little, 1:15 is
                    cast in the form a traditional speech unit, the riddle. Some of you are
                    aware of my obsession with riddles in the Johannine sayings, but that
                    statement is a riddle by any definition any folklorist would use. "The one
                    coming behind me became ahead of me because he was before me" is just
                    nonsense when the terms are taken in the literal, spatial sense--you can't
                    be "behind" and "ahead of" someone at the same time, so the statement must
                    resolve itself at a deeper level.

                    My conclusion--and please don't steal this idea, because I'm gradually
                    working up an article on it: the whole Prologue was spun out of the riddle
                    at 1:15. In other words, it makes more sense to me that the verbal
                    structure of the Prologue was derived from the three verbs in this
                    traditional saying, than to argue that someone crafted the Prologue and then
                    boiled it down to an obtuse remark that is put on the lips of the Baptist.
                    Specifically, I'd see the whole thing as a midrashic commentary on that
                    traditional saying, combining elements of Genesis 1 and the Exodus story.

                    What do you think? Any opinion, Paul?

                    Respectfully,
                    --tom

                    Tom Thatcher
                    Cincinnati Bible Seminary
                    2700 Glenway Ave.
                    Cincinnati, Oh 45204
                    (513) 244-8172
                    tom.thatcher@... <mailto:tom.thatcher@...>
                    "the truth will set you free"


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Paul Anderson [SMTP:panderso@...]
                    Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:12 PM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a
                    Postulated Hymn-like Composition to the Word

                    Excellent points, Ramsey; I've been wondering lately about the
                    possibility of the poetic sections of the Prologue being expansions on the
                    Baptist's testimony and memory.

                    Paul Anderson

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ramsey Michaels [mailto:profram@...]
                    Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:30 AM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                    Hymn-like Composition to the Word


                    The question of whether the so-called "Prolog" is poetry is an
                    important
                    one. When it is read as poetry, the sections that are patently
                    prose, such
                    as vv 6-8 and 15 are viewed as "interpolations" and sometimes
                    virtually
                    dismissed. But if it is prose, then they are not interpolations, and
                    the
                    whole thing reads differently.

                    For example, verse 6 looks very much like the narrative beginning to
                    the
                    Gospel, a beginning not unlike the beginning of Mark. This goes
                    against the
                    conventional wisdom that verse 19 is the narrative beginning. If the
                    narrative begins at verse 6 and not verse 19, then the real "prolog"
                    (or
                    preface, or introduction, call it what you will) consists of vv
                    1-5, not vv
                    1-18.

                    In short, perhaps the search for poetry or a hymnic source behind
                    the text
                    as we have it has skewed our reading of the existing text. Perhaps
                    what
                    conventional wisdom has regarded as "interpolations" are actually
                    the key to
                    understanding the whole.

                    Ramsey Michaels


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Peter Phillips" <p.m.phillips@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:55 PM
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                    Hymn-like
                    Composition to the Word


                    > Frank,
                    > You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions
                    of the
                    > possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two
                    questions
                    as
                    > a first toss of the coin, but I hope to have a fuller look at it
                    > tomorrow...:
                    >
                    > What Greek metre is this if it is a hymn?
                    > If there is no metre it is prose and so is not a hymn!
                    >
                    > When does anti in v.17 ever mean upon - anti = instead of or in
                    place of.
                    >
                    > Pete Phillips
                    > Cliff College
                    > Sheffield, UK
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                    > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:55 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                    Hymn-like
                    > Composition to the Word
                    >
                    >
                    > > INTRODUCTION
                    > >
                    > > It has long been recognized that much of John 1:1-18 is likely
                    based on
                    > > hymn-like composition to the Word. This is the proposed
                    re-construction
                    > of
                    > > it as given by R.A. Brown in The Gospel According to John (Vol.
                    1, pp.
                    > 3-4):
                    > >
                    > > First Strophe
                    > > 1 In the beginning was the Word;
                    > > the Word was in God's presence,
                    > > and the Word was God.
                    > > 2 He was present with God in the beginning.
                    > >
                    > > Second Strophe
                    > > 3 Through him all things came into being,
                    > > and apart from him not a thing came to be.
                    > > 4 That which had come to be in him was life,
                    > > and this life was the light of men.
                    > > 5 The light shines on in the darkness,
                    > > for the darkness did not overcome it.
                    > >
                    > > Third Strophe
                    > > 10 He was in the world,
                    > > and the world was made by him;
                    > > yet the world did not recognize him.
                    > > 11 To his own he came;
                    > > yet his own people did not accept him.
                    > > 12 But all those who did accept him
                    > > he empowered to become God's children.
                    > >
                    > > Fourth Strophe
                    > > 14 And the Word became flesh
                    > > and made his dwelling among us.
                    > > And we have seen his glory,
                    > > the glory of an only Son coming from the Father,
                    > > filled with enduring love.
                    > > 16 And of his fullness
                    > > we have all had a share--
                    > > love in place of love.
                    > >
                    > > I suggest that the following changes be made to this proposed
                    > > re-construction by Brown:
                    > > 1. The addition of verse nine. As R.A. Brown notes (Ibid., p.
                    9), some
                    > have
                    > > taken it to be a part of the original composition and give it
                    this
                    > > structure:
                    > > He was the real light
                    > > that gives light to every man;
                    > > he was coming into the world.
                    > > 2. The addition of verse 17
                    > > 3. The division of the composition into three sections, each
                    consisting
                    of
                    > > ten lines and each containing two strophes of three lines each
                    and two
                    > > strophes of two lines each:
                    > > a. The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                    > > b. The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
                    > > c. The Word becomes Flesh.
                    > >
                    > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN THE GREEK
                    > >
                    > > Section A The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                    > >
                    > > En Arche en ho Logos,
                    > > Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
                    > > Kai Theos en ho Logos.
                    > >
                    > > Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
                    > > Panta di autou egenato,
                    > > Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.
                    > >
                    > > Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
                    > > Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.
                    > >
                    > > Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
                    > > Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.
                    > >
                    > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word
                    > >
                    > > En to Phws to alethinon
                    > > ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon erchoumenon
                    > > eis ton kosmon,
                    > >
                    > > En tou kosmw en,
                    > > Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
                    > > Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,
                    > >
                    > > Eis to idia elthen
                    > > Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.
                    > >
                    > > Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
                    > > Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.
                    > >
                    > > Section C The Word Becomes Flesh
                    > >
                    > > Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
                    > > Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
                    > > Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,
                    > >
                    > > Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
                    > > Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.
                    > >
                    > > Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
                    > > hemeis pantes elabomen,
                    > > Kai charin anti charitos,
                    > >
                    > > Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
                    > > He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.
                    > >
                    > > Note that, in the third section, where the Word becomes flesh,
                    the
                    strophe
                    >
                    > > pattern changes from the previous 3/3/2/2 to 3/2/3/2.
                    > >
                    > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN TRANSLATION
                    > >
                    > > Here is the proposed re-constuction of the postulated hymn-like
                    > composition
                    > > in a rough English translation:
                    > >
                    > > Section A The Word in the Beginning of Time and Space
                    > >
                    > > In the Beginning was the Word,
                    > > And the Word was with God,
                    > > And the Word was God.
                    > >
                    > > He was in the Beginning with God,
                    > > Everything though him came into being,
                    > > And without him came into being no thing.
                    > >
                    > > That which came into being In him was Life,
                    > > And the Life was the Light of mankind.
                    > >
                    > > And the Light shines in the Darkness,
                    > > And the Darkness did not overcome it.
                    > >
                    > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the
                    World
                    > >
                    > > The true Light
                    > > That enlightens mankind
                    > > Was coming into the World.
                    > >
                    > > He was within the World,
                    > > And the World came into being through him,
                    > > And the World knew him not.
                    > >
                    > > To his own he came,
                    > > And his own received him not.
                    > >
                    > > But as many as received him
                    > > He gave to them authority to be children of God,
                    > >
                    > > Section C The Word becomes Flesh
                    > >
                    > > And the Logos became flesh
                    > > And tabernacled among us.
                    > > And we beheld his glory:
                    > >
                    > > A glory as of a one of a kind with a Father,
                    > > Full of Grace and Truth.
                    > >
                    > > And of his Fullness
                    > > We have all received,
                    > > Grace upon grace:
                    > >
                    > > For the Law was given through Moses,
                    > > And the Grace and the Truth came through Christ Jesus.
                    > >
                    > > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated
                    hymn-like
                    > > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it?
                    Also, do
                    > you
                    > > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
                    > >
                    > > Frank McCoy
                    > > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
                    > > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                    johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >


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                  • fmmccoy
                    ... From: Pete Phillips To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:37 PM Subject: Re:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Pete Phillips" <p.m.phillips@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:37 PM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
                      Composition to the Word


                      > There is so much to say about this - see the countless versions in
                      countless
                      > commentaries!
                      >
                      > How can it be a hymn when there is no metre? If there is a metre, what is
                      > it? If a metre has to be uncovered because the vocab has been changed
                      then
                      > what is the proposed vocab for the original Urprolog?
                      >
                      > On the details, and for starters, why translate anti in verse 17 as 'upon'
                      > when it means 'instead of' or 'in place of'.
                      >
                      > Why put v.9 and 17 back but not v.13? Where is all the rationale behind
                      > this lot. Why start with Brown in any case? What's the reason for the
                      > whole exercise?
                      >
                      > The proposal could do with spelling out and explaining.
                      >

                      Dear Pete Phillips:

                      By "hymn-like" I do not mean that it has a metre or that it is meant to be
                      sung. It is, technically, prose. It is "hymn-like" in the sense that it
                      has a formal structure with strophes.

                      As respects your question of why to translate "anti" as "upon", Brown states
                      in The Gospel According to John (Vol. 1, p. 16), "'Grace upon grace' or
                      'grace after grace'; *accumulation*. Many modern commentators (Lagrange,
                      Hoskyns, Bultmann, Barrett) support this reading on the basis of a text in
                      Philo (De Posteritati Caini 145) where *anti* clearly has this meaning."

                      Now, you ask what is the rationale behind the proposed reconstruction of a
                      postulated hymn-like composition.

                      Well, let us look at the first section of this postulated composition:

                      En Arche en ho Logos,
                      Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
                      Kai Theos en ho Logos.

                      Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
                      Panta di autou egenato,
                      Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.

                      Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
                      Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.

                      Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
                      Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.

                      Note these patterns:
                      (1) In each of the three lines of the first strophe, the Word is explicitly
                      mentioned by name.
                      (2) in each of the first two strophes, the initial line stresses that the
                      Word was in the Beginning.
                      (3) in the last two lines of the first strophe, the stress is on the
                      relationship between the Word and God while, in the last two lines of the
                      second strophe, the stress is on the relationship between the Word and
                      Creation.
                      (4) In the two two lines strophes, we have the sequence: line 7: zwe, line
                      8: zwe and phos, line 9: phos and skotia, and line 10: skotia.

                      These patterns, I suggest, are indications that 1:1-5 really is a four
                      strophe composition, with the first two strophes of three lines each and the
                      last two strophes of two lines each.

                      Also important is GTh 77. I do not know how to render Coptic in English
                      letters, but the inter-linear Coptic text is found in Michael Grondin's
                      web-site:

                      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/splith.htm

                      It appears to have the same 3/3/2/2 pattern that is postulated for John
                      1:1-5:

                      Stroiphe1 The First "I am" Declaration
                      I am the Light,
                      The One which is upon them,
                      All of them.

                      Strophe 2 The Second "I am" Declaration
                      I am the All,
                      Has the All come out of me,
                      And has the All split open to me.

                      Striophe 3 The First Where to Find Me Declaration
                      Split open a timber,
                      I am there.

                      Striophe 4 The Second Where to Find Me Declaration
                      Take up the stone,
                      And you will fall upon me there.

                      Note the Johannine character of GTh 77--with no less than two "I am"
                      sayings!

                      In any event, the existence of a passage from another gospel which appears
                      to be in the same 3/3/2/2 format as the postulated format for John 1:1-5
                      increases the likelihood, ISTM, that the postulated format for John 1:1-5 is
                      real.

                      Also, thematically, GTh 77 strongly links to John 1:9-10: for, in both,
                      Jesus is the Light, is the One through whom everything came into being, and
                      he is spoken of as being present in the Cosmos. Furthermore, 1:9 readily
                      breaks down into three lines and so does 1:10. Therefore, might it not be
                      that they are the 3/3 of yet another 3/3/2/2 format composition--with 11 and
                      12 being the 2/2?

                      This, then, is my rationale for taking the second section of the postulated
                      composition to be John 1:9-12:

                      Strophe 1: The Word Enters into the Cosmos
                      En to Phws to alethinon
                      Ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon
                      Erchoumenon eis ton kosmon,

                      Strophe 2 The Reaction of the Cosmos
                      En tou kosmw en,
                      Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
                      Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,

                      Strophe 3 The Reaction of Some Human Beings
                      Eis to idia elthen
                      Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.

                      Strophe 4 The Reaction of Some Other Human Beings
                      Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
                      Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.

                      By this point, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that Brown appears to
                      have pretty good judgment regarding where to find the postulated
                      composition: for he finds it in 1:1-5 and 1:10-12 and, so, only seems to
                      have missed three lines of it (i.e., the three lines in 1:9).

                      Further, I note, he thinks that it is also present in 1:14 and 1:16--which
                      leads me to think that they are a part of a third section. Indeed, by trial
                      and error, I found that, by adding 1:17, one finds a possible third section
                      which is not in the 3/3/2/2 format of the first two sections but a closely
                      related 3/2/3/2 format:

                      Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
                      Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
                      Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,

                      Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
                      Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.

                      Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
                      hemeis pantes elabomen,
                      Kai charin anti charitos.

                      Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
                      He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.

                      Needless to say, I would say that this third section is the shakiest of the
                      three because of its altered 3/2/3/2 format. Yet, because it contains, like
                      the other two sections, two three line strophes and two two line strophes
                      and a total of ten lines, I currently lean towards thinking that it is real.
                      Still, at the same time, I am continuing research on 1:14-18 to see if it
                      might have a 3/3/2/2 format section embedded in it.

                      I hope this helps you understand my rationale. Thank you for the questions.

                      Regards,

                      Frank McCoy
                      1809 N. English Apt. 17
                      Maplewood, MN USA 55109.
                    • Ramsey Michaels
                      Tom: I have been moving in the same direction as your proposal on John 1:15. My interest in this text began in 1981 with my article in the Metzger Festschrift,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 24, 2003
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                        Tom:

                        I have been moving in the same direction as your proposal on John 1:15. My
                        interest in this text began in 1981 with my article in the Metzger
                        Festschrift, "Origen and the Text of John 1:15."

                        I believe the traditional saying in 1:15 is indeed the reason why the author
                        prefixed his Gospel with vv 1-5, to flesh out the assertion that Jesus
                        indeed preceded John. This will be reflected in the commentary for Eerdmans
                        I have been working on lo these many years. The unusual feature of my
                        approach is that I do not look at vv 1-18 as "Prolog," but rather at vv 1-5
                        as Preface or Introduction.

                        As for the rest of your hypothesis, about 1:15 as a riddle and about the
                        three verbs, I find that very interesting, but will have to think more about
                        it. I'm eager to see just how you will develop it.

                        Ramsey Michaels


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Thatcher, Tom" <tom.thatcher@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:31 PM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated Hymn-like
                        Composition to the Word


                        > Paul et. al.,
                        >
                        > Further to Paul's point, let me observe that the whole Prologue is
                        > structured around three verbs in the Greek text--en (past tense of eimi;
                        > "was"); forms of ginomai ("became"); and forms of erchomai ("came")--sorry
                        > about the lack of Greek fonts here. The dominance of these three verbs in
                        > the architecture of the passage is obvious even with a casual skim down
                        the
                        > page. I think that that the juxtaposition of these three verbs has
                        > significant theological implications in this passage, but for now let me
                        > limit my remarks to the tradition-history question.
                        >
                        > Very notably, all three of these verbs appear together in the Baptist's
                        > statement at 1:15 about "the one coming behind me," which involves several
                        > significant Christological implications--including Jesus' pre-existence
                        and
                        > his relationship to the Baptizer. To thicken the plot a little, 1:15 is
                        > cast in the form a traditional speech unit, the riddle. Some of you are
                        > aware of my obsession with riddles in the Johannine sayings, but that
                        > statement is a riddle by any definition any folklorist would use. "The
                        one
                        > coming behind me became ahead of me because he was before me" is just
                        > nonsense when the terms are taken in the literal, spatial sense--you can't
                        > be "behind" and "ahead of" someone at the same time, so the statement must
                        > resolve itself at a deeper level.
                        >
                        > My conclusion--and please don't steal this idea, because I'm gradually
                        > working up an article on it: the whole Prologue was spun out of the
                        riddle
                        > at 1:15. In other words, it makes more sense to me that the verbal
                        > structure of the Prologue was derived from the three verbs in this
                        > traditional saying, than to argue that someone crafted the Prologue and
                        then
                        > boiled it down to an obtuse remark that is put on the lips of the Baptist.
                        > Specifically, I'd see the whole thing as a midrashic commentary on that
                        > traditional saying, combining elements of Genesis 1 and the Exodus story.
                        >
                        > What do you think? Any opinion, Paul?
                        >
                        > Respectfully,
                        > --tom
                        >
                        > Tom Thatcher
                        > Cincinnati Bible Seminary
                        > 2700 Glenway Ave.
                        > Cincinnati, Oh 45204
                        > (513) 244-8172
                        > tom.thatcher@... <mailto:tom.thatcher@...>
                        > "the truth will set you free"
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Paul Anderson [SMTP:panderso@...]
                        > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:12 PM
                        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a
                        > Postulated Hymn-like Composition to the Word
                        >
                        > Excellent points, Ramsey; I've been wondering lately about the
                        > possibility of the poetic sections of the Prologue being expansions on the
                        > Baptist's testimony and memory.
                        >
                        > Paul Anderson
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Ramsey Michaels [mailto:profram@...]
                        > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:30 AM
                        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                        > Hymn-like Composition to the Word
                        >
                        >
                        > The question of whether the so-called "Prolog" is poetry is an
                        > important
                        > one. When it is read as poetry, the sections that are patently
                        > prose, such
                        > as vv 6-8 and 15 are viewed as "interpolations" and sometimes
                        > virtually
                        > dismissed. But if it is prose, then they are not interpolations, and
                        > the
                        > whole thing reads differently.
                        >
                        > For example, verse 6 looks very much like the narrative beginning to
                        > the
                        > Gospel, a beginning not unlike the beginning of Mark. This goes
                        > against the
                        > conventional wisdom that verse 19 is the narrative beginning. If the
                        > narrative begins at verse 6 and not verse 19, then the real "prolog"
                        > (or
                        > preface, or introduction, call it what you will) consists of vv
                        > 1-5, not vv
                        > 1-18.
                        >
                        > In short, perhaps the search for poetry or a hymnic source behind
                        > the text
                        > as we have it has skewed our reading of the existing text. Perhaps
                        > what
                        > conventional wisdom has regarded as "interpolations" are actually
                        > the key to
                        > understanding the whole.
                        >
                        > Ramsey Michaels
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Peter Phillips" <p.m.phillips@...>
                        > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 12:55 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                        > Hymn-like
                        > Composition to the Word
                        >
                        >
                        > > Frank,
                        > > You tread on well worn territory here. There are so many versions
                        > of the
                        > > possible hymn structure of the Prologue. But here are just two
                        > questions
                        > as
                        > > a first toss of the coin, but I hope to have a fuller look at it
                        > > tomorrow...:
                        > >
                        > > What Greek metre is this if it is a hymn?
                        > > If there is no metre it is prose and so is not a hymn!
                        > >
                        > > When does anti in v.17 ever mean upon - anti = instead of or in
                        > place of.
                        > >
                        > > Pete Phillips
                        > > Cliff College
                        > > Sheffield, UK
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "fmmccoy" <FMMCCOY@...>
                        > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:55 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] A Proposed Re-construction of a Postulated
                        > Hymn-like
                        > > Composition to the Word
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > INTRODUCTION
                        > > >
                        > > > It has long been recognized that much of John 1:1-18 is likely
                        > based on
                        > > > hymn-like composition to the Word. This is the proposed
                        > re-construction
                        > > of
                        > > > it as given by R.A. Brown in The Gospel According to John (Vol.
                        > 1, pp.
                        > > 3-4):
                        > > >
                        > > > First Strophe
                        > > > 1 In the beginning was the Word;
                        > > > the Word was in God's presence,
                        > > > and the Word was God.
                        > > > 2 He was present with God in the beginning.
                        > > >
                        > > > Second Strophe
                        > > > 3 Through him all things came into being,
                        > > > and apart from him not a thing came to be.
                        > > > 4 That which had come to be in him was life,
                        > > > and this life was the light of men.
                        > > > 5 The light shines on in the darkness,
                        > > > for the darkness did not overcome it.
                        > > >
                        > > > Third Strophe
                        > > > 10 He was in the world,
                        > > > and the world was made by him;
                        > > > yet the world did not recognize him.
                        > > > 11 To his own he came;
                        > > > yet his own people did not accept him.
                        > > > 12 But all those who did accept him
                        > > > he empowered to become God's children.
                        > > >
                        > > > Fourth Strophe
                        > > > 14 And the Word became flesh
                        > > > and made his dwelling among us.
                        > > > And we have seen his glory,
                        > > > the glory of an only Son coming from the Father,
                        > > > filled with enduring love.
                        > > > 16 And of his fullness
                        > > > we have all had a share--
                        > > > love in place of love.
                        > > >
                        > > > I suggest that the following changes be made to this proposed
                        > > > re-construction by Brown:
                        > > > 1. The addition of verse nine. As R.A. Brown notes (Ibid., p.
                        > 9), some
                        > > have
                        > > > taken it to be a part of the original composition and give it
                        > this
                        > > > structure:
                        > > > He was the real light
                        > > > that gives light to every man;
                        > > > he was coming into the world.
                        > > > 2. The addition of verse 17
                        > > > 3. The division of the composition into three sections, each
                        > consisting
                        > of
                        > > > ten lines and each containing two strophes of three lines each
                        > and two
                        > > > strophes of two lines each:
                        > > > a. The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                        > > > b. The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the World
                        > > > c. The Word becomes Flesh.
                        > > >
                        > > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN THE GREEK
                        > > >
                        > > > Section A The Word at the Beginning of Time and Space
                        > > >
                        > > > En Arche en ho Logos,
                        > > > Kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon,
                        > > > Kai Theos en ho Logos.
                        > > >
                        > > > Houtos en en Arche pros ton Theon,
                        > > > Panta di autou egenato,
                        > > > Kai chwris autou egeneto oude hen.
                        > > >
                        > > > Ho gegonen en autw Zwe en,
                        > > > Kai he Zwe en to Phws ton anthrowpwn.
                        > > >
                        > > > Kai to Phws en te Skotia phainei,
                        > > > Kai he Skotia auto ou katalaben.
                        > > >
                        > > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word
                        > > >
                        > > > En to Phws to alethinon
                        > > > ho phwtizei panta anthrwpon erchoumenon
                        > > > eis ton kosmon,
                        > > >
                        > > > En tou kosmw en,
                        > > > Kai ho kosmos di qutou egeneto,
                        > > > Kai ho kosmos autou ouk egnw,
                        > > >
                        > > > Eis to idia elthen
                        > > > Kai oi idioi ou parelabon.
                        > > >
                        > > > Hosoi de elabon auton edwken
                        > > > Autois ezousian tekna Theou genesthai.
                        > > >
                        > > > Section C The Word Becomes Flesh
                        > > >
                        > > > Kai ho Logos sarz egeneto
                        > > > Kai eskenwsen en hemin,
                        > > > Kai etheasametha ten dozan autou,
                        > > >
                        > > > Dozan hws monogenous para Patros,
                        > > > Pleres Charitos kai Aletheias.
                        > > >
                        > > > Hoti ek to plerowmatos auto
                        > > > hemeis pantes elabomen,
                        > > > Kai charin anti charitos,
                        > > >
                        > > > Hoti ho Nomos dia Mwusews edothe,
                        > > > He Charis kai he Aletheia dia Hisou Christou egeneto.
                        > > >
                        > > > Note that, in the third section, where the Word becomes flesh,
                        > the
                        > strophe
                        > >
                        > > > pattern changes from the previous 3/3/2/2 to 3/2/3/2.
                        > > >
                        > > > THE PROPOSED RE-CONSTRUCTION IN TRANSLATION
                        > > >
                        > > > Here is the proposed re-constuction of the postulated hymn-like
                        > > composition
                        > > > in a rough English translation:
                        > > >
                        > > > Section A The Word in the Beginning of Time and Space
                        > > >
                        > > > In the Beginning was the Word,
                        > > > And the Word was with God,
                        > > > And the Word was God.
                        > > >
                        > > > He was in the Beginning with God,
                        > > > Everything though him came into being,
                        > > > And without him came into being no thing.
                        > > >
                        > > > That which came into being In him was Life,
                        > > > And the Life was the Light of mankind.
                        > > >
                        > > > And the Light shines in the Darkness,
                        > > > And the Darkness did not overcome it.
                        > > >
                        > > > Section B The Pre-incarnational Activity of the Word in the
                        > World
                        > > >
                        > > > The true Light
                        > > > That enlightens mankind
                        > > > Was coming into the World.
                        > > >
                        > > > He was within the World,
                        > > > And the World came into being through him,
                        > > > And the World knew him not.
                        > > >
                        > > > To his own he came,
                        > > > And his own received him not.
                        > > >
                        > > > But as many as received him
                        > > > He gave to them authority to be children of God,
                        > > >
                        > > > Section C The Word becomes Flesh
                        > > >
                        > > > And the Logos became flesh
                        > > > And tabernacled among us.
                        > > > And we beheld his glory:
                        > > >
                        > > > A glory as of a one of a kind with a Father,
                        > > > Full of Grace and Truth.
                        > > >
                        > > > And of his Fullness
                        > > > We have all received,
                        > > > Grace upon grace:
                        > > >
                        > > > For the Law was given through Moses,
                        > > > And the Grace and the Truth came through Christ Jesus.
                        > > >
                        > > > How does the proposed re-construction of the postulated
                        > hymn-like
                        > > > composition look to you? Do you recommend any changes to it?
                        > Also, do
                        > > you
                        > > > recommend any changes in the English translation of it?
                        > > >
                        > > > Frank McCoy
                        > > > 1809 N. English Apt. 17
                        > > > Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
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