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RE: [John_Lit] Re: Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10

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  • Mary Coloe
    Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and 6th century
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 3, 2002
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      Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show
      signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and
      6th century CE and even beyond. So yes the Targums could well have been
      influenced by our Gospel. the key to their usefulness is if you can find a
      definitely pre-Gospel tradition showing the same type of exegetical trend
      i.e. by comparing with other pre-gospel writing such as the DSS or
      Jubilees.



      Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
      Australian Catholic University Limited
      (ABN 15050 192660)

      Locked Bag 4115
      Fitzroy. VIC 3065 AUSTRALIA

      ph (61 + 3) 99533137 Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
      M.Coloe@...
    • Bob MacDonald
      RSV has he gave up his spirit NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 8, 2002
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        RSV has he gave up his spirit

        NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit

        Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave over is
        the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word is used
        in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion story.

        She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the Spirit here.

        Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?

        I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
        transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
        though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a contradiction in the
        relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.

        weird thoughts

        Bob

        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      • wali van lohuizen
        Dear Bob MacDonald, In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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          Dear Bob MacDonald,

          In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have suggested the same as Mary Coloe does: 'handed over the spirit' (or Spirit? alway a tricky decision).
          I think this is very convincing if one assumes the spirit is in Jesus, or maybe in the human being. That is what I argued in that paper (besides that [some] human beings may be in (the) (holy) spirit). For both propositions I have found quite a few convincing arguments in the Gospels, apart from those below:

          Mt 27:50 is a bit different but close to 'hand over': 'let go the spirit' (apheken).
          Lk 23:46 is quite near to Jn with the extra phrase 'paratithemai to pneuma mou'.
          For this Rienecker's Sprachlicher Schluessel gives 'zur Aufbewahrung niederlegen, anvertrauen, anbefehlen'.
          In the Kittel Maurer speaks of 'commending His spirit'. Generally it is translated as ' commit' or 'commend', which is similar but less strong.
          Then he speaks of 'exepneusen', which is related to pneuma of course: 'breathes out the spirit'.

          Wali van Lohuizen
          Amsterdam, Holland





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Big_Mart_98 <big_mart_98@yahoo.com>
          ... over is ... is used ... story. ... There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does not necessarily, or even often, mean betray ,
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
            <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
            > RSV has he gave up his spirit
            >
            > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
            >
            > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
            over is
            > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
            is used
            > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
            story.
            >

            There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does
            not necessarily, or even often, mean "betray", but it does often mean
            "arrest". St Paul may thereforre just have meant, "the night when he
            was arrested", and the bit about Judas may be an overwrite designed to
            calumniate Jesus's brother Judas (Matt. 13.55).
            Martin Edwards.
          • adisciple2 <smosher0@lycos.com>
            I agree that 19:30 (literally, giving up/over the Spirit ) is about Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in Jn., I think it s more
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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              I agree that 19:30 (literally, "giving up/over the Spirit") is about
              Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in
              Jn., I think it's more a proleptic anticipation of what Jesus will do
              (later after his resurrection when he breathes on the disciples and
              says receive the Spirit, though even this "foreshadows" the later
              Pentecost event of Acts).

              This future giving of the Spirit is clearly announced in Jn. 7:37-39
              (the living water/Spirit will flow out of "his" belly after Jesus is
              glorified). I think this is also fulfilled in a proleptic way in Jn.
              19:34, shortly after the verse being discussed (19:30). After the
              soldier pierces Jesus' side, blood and water come out. The witness
              of this emphasizes the truth of this account to accent its
              importance. Thus the water fulfils the living water/Spirit flowing
              out after his death/glorification.

              So 19:30 fits into this motif also. Various other passages
              throughout Jn. could also be cited as similar metaphors for this
              motif. And much of Jn. 14-16 emphasizes the importance of Jesus
              sending/giving the Paraclete/Spirit after he departs.

              Steve Mosher

              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
              <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
              > RSV has he gave up his spirit
              >
              > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
              >
              > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
              over is
              > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
              is used
              > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
              story.
              >
              > She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the
              Spirit here.
              >
              > Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?
              >
              > I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
              > transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
              > though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a
              contradiction in the
              > relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.
              >
              > weird thoughts
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > mailto::BobMacDonald@s...
              > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
              >
              > Catch the foxes for us,
              > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
              > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
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