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RE: [John_Lit] Re: Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10

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  • Bob MacDonald
    John Staton wrote ... I have no trouble recommending it, John. I am hoping someone took notes at the discussion on this book at the SBL meeting and that
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 3 12:16 AM
      John Staton wrote
      >>Perhaps I should get hold of the book

      I have no trouble recommending it, John. I am hoping someone took notes at
      the discussion on this book at the SBL meeting and that perhaps some of the
      questions will arise here on this list.

      The Isaiah 43:10 in the source I have seems to lack the I am he in Hebrew -
      the word opposite the "that I [am] he" is paniym : before with a Lamed in
      front of it. I suspect the compilers did not want to transliterate these but
      in this verse the Hebrew is missing too.

      (This is straight out of the advent prose - very good timing for my current
      reading.)

      When were the Targums of Isaiah written? They seem very influenced by the
      Gospel - not vice versa. The DSS finds were not such targums were they?
      Would this interpretive scheme be current in the first century?

      Bob

      mailto::BobMacDonald@...
      + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

      Catch the foxes for us,
      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
    • Mary Coloe
      Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and 6th century
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 3 6:11 PM
        Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show
        signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and
        6th century CE and even beyond. So yes the Targums could well have been
        influenced by our Gospel. the key to their usefulness is if you can find a
        definitely pre-Gospel tradition showing the same type of exegetical trend
        i.e. by comparing with other pre-gospel writing such as the DSS or
        Jubilees.



        Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
        Australian Catholic University Limited
        (ABN 15050 192660)

        Locked Bag 4115
        Fitzroy. VIC 3065 AUSTRALIA

        ph (61 + 3) 99533137 Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
        M.Coloe@...
      • Bob MacDonald
        RSV has he gave up his spirit NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 8 7:36 PM
          RSV has he gave up his spirit

          NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit

          Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave over is
          the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word is used
          in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion story.

          She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the Spirit here.

          Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?

          I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
          transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
          though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a contradiction in the
          relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.

          weird thoughts

          Bob

          mailto::BobMacDonald@...
          + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

          Catch the foxes for us,
          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        • wali van lohuizen
          Dear Bob MacDonald, In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 9 4:30 AM
            Dear Bob MacDonald,

            In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have suggested the same as Mary Coloe does: 'handed over the spirit' (or Spirit? alway a tricky decision).
            I think this is very convincing if one assumes the spirit is in Jesus, or maybe in the human being. That is what I argued in that paper (besides that [some] human beings may be in (the) (holy) spirit). For both propositions I have found quite a few convincing arguments in the Gospels, apart from those below:

            Mt 27:50 is a bit different but close to 'hand over': 'let go the spirit' (apheken).
            Lk 23:46 is quite near to Jn with the extra phrase 'paratithemai to pneuma mou'.
            For this Rienecker's Sprachlicher Schluessel gives 'zur Aufbewahrung niederlegen, anvertrauen, anbefehlen'.
            In the Kittel Maurer speaks of 'commending His spirit'. Generally it is translated as ' commit' or 'commend', which is similar but less strong.
            Then he speaks of 'exepneusen', which is related to pneuma of course: 'breathes out the spirit'.

            Wali van Lohuizen
            Amsterdam, Holland





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Big_Mart_98 <big_mart_98@yahoo.com>
            ... over is ... is used ... story. ... There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does not necessarily, or even often, mean betray ,
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 9 10:14 AM
              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
              <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
              > RSV has he gave up his spirit
              >
              > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
              >
              > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
              over is
              > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
              is used
              > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
              story.
              >

              There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does
              not necessarily, or even often, mean "betray", but it does often mean
              "arrest". St Paul may thereforre just have meant, "the night when he
              was arrested", and the bit about Judas may be an overwrite designed to
              calumniate Jesus's brother Judas (Matt. 13.55).
              Martin Edwards.
            • adisciple2 <smosher0@lycos.com>
              I agree that 19:30 (literally, giving up/over the Spirit ) is about Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in Jn., I think it s more
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 9 11:38 AM
                I agree that 19:30 (literally, "giving up/over the Spirit") is about
                Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in
                Jn., I think it's more a proleptic anticipation of what Jesus will do
                (later after his resurrection when he breathes on the disciples and
                says receive the Spirit, though even this "foreshadows" the later
                Pentecost event of Acts).

                This future giving of the Spirit is clearly announced in Jn. 7:37-39
                (the living water/Spirit will flow out of "his" belly after Jesus is
                glorified). I think this is also fulfilled in a proleptic way in Jn.
                19:34, shortly after the verse being discussed (19:30). After the
                soldier pierces Jesus' side, blood and water come out. The witness
                of this emphasizes the truth of this account to accent its
                importance. Thus the water fulfils the living water/Spirit flowing
                out after his death/glorification.

                So 19:30 fits into this motif also. Various other passages
                throughout Jn. could also be cited as similar metaphors for this
                motif. And much of Jn. 14-16 emphasizes the importance of Jesus
                sending/giving the Paraclete/Spirit after he departs.

                Steve Mosher

                --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
                <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
                > RSV has he gave up his spirit
                >
                > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
                >
                > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
                over is
                > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
                is used
                > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
                story.
                >
                > She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the
                Spirit here.
                >
                > Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?
                >
                > I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
                > transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
                > though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a
                contradiction in the
                > relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.
                >
                > weird thoughts
                >
                > Bob
                >
                > mailto::BobMacDonald@s...
                > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
                >
                > Catch the foxes for us,
                > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
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