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Re: Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10

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  • John E Staton
    Bob wrote: Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us indicates that the following is in ... Makes sense to me, even without reading the book. The links between
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 2, 2002
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      Bob wrote:
      " Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us indicates that the following is in
      > Isaiah 41:4 and 43:10
      >
      > in reverse order (Aleph-nun-yod dash? He-.waw-aleph)
      >
      > She links this to the ego eimi of John"

      Makes sense to me, even without reading the book. The links between "Second
      Isaiah" and John have been noted by numerous scholars, and the force of this
      phrase does seem to parallel Jesus use of "I am" in the fourth gospel. Very
      interesting. Perhaps I should get hold of the book

      Best Wishes

      JOHN E STATON
    • Bob MacDonald
      John Staton wrote ... I have no trouble recommending it, John. I am hoping someone took notes at the discussion on this book at the SBL meeting and that
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 3, 2002
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        John Staton wrote
        >>Perhaps I should get hold of the book

        I have no trouble recommending it, John. I am hoping someone took notes at
        the discussion on this book at the SBL meeting and that perhaps some of the
        questions will arise here on this list.

        The Isaiah 43:10 in the source I have seems to lack the I am he in Hebrew -
        the word opposite the "that I [am] he" is paniym : before with a Lamed in
        front of it. I suspect the compilers did not want to transliterate these but
        in this verse the Hebrew is missing too.

        (This is straight out of the advent prose - very good timing for my current
        reading.)

        When were the Targums of Isaiah written? They seem very influenced by the
        Gospel - not vice versa. The DSS finds were not such targums were they?
        Would this interpretive scheme be current in the first century?

        Bob

        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      • Mary Coloe
        Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and 6th century
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 3, 2002
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          Dear Bob - Targum dating is extremely difficult as in these documents show
          signs of a long history of development ranging from BCE into the 5th and
          6th century CE and even beyond. So yes the Targums could well have been
          influenced by our Gospel. the key to their usefulness is if you can find a
          definitely pre-Gospel tradition showing the same type of exegetical trend
          i.e. by comparing with other pre-gospel writing such as the DSS or
          Jubilees.



          Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
          Australian Catholic University Limited
          (ABN 15050 192660)

          Locked Bag 4115
          Fitzroy. VIC 3065 AUSTRALIA

          ph (61 + 3) 99533137 Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
          M.Coloe@...
        • Bob MacDonald
          RSV has he gave up his spirit NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 8, 2002
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            RSV has he gave up his spirit

            NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit

            Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave over is
            the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word is used
            in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion story.

            She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the Spirit here.

            Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?

            I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
            transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
            though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a contradiction in the
            relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.

            weird thoughts

            Bob

            mailto::BobMacDonald@...
            + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          • wali van lohuizen
            Dear Bob MacDonald, In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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              Dear Bob MacDonald,

              In a paper for the Translation Section of SBL 2000 (Being in Spirit: on the Pericopes in the Synoptic Gospels with En Pneumati) I have suggested the same as Mary Coloe does: 'handed over the spirit' (or Spirit? alway a tricky decision).
              I think this is very convincing if one assumes the spirit is in Jesus, or maybe in the human being. That is what I argued in that paper (besides that [some] human beings may be in (the) (holy) spirit). For both propositions I have found quite a few convincing arguments in the Gospels, apart from those below:

              Mt 27:50 is a bit different but close to 'hand over': 'let go the spirit' (apheken).
              Lk 23:46 is quite near to Jn with the extra phrase 'paratithemai to pneuma mou'.
              For this Rienecker's Sprachlicher Schluessel gives 'zur Aufbewahrung niederlegen, anvertrauen, anbefehlen'.
              In the Kittel Maurer speaks of 'commending His spirit'. Generally it is translated as ' commit' or 'commend', which is similar but less strong.
              Then he speaks of 'exepneusen', which is related to pneuma of course: 'breathes out the spirit'.

              Wali van Lohuizen
              Amsterdam, Holland





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Big_Mart_98 <big_mart_98@yahoo.com>
              ... over is ... is used ... story. ... There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does not necessarily, or even often, mean betray ,
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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                --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
                <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
                > RSV has he gave up his spirit
                >
                > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
                >
                > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
                over is
                > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
                is used
                > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
                story.
                >

                There is both more and less to this than meets the eye. The word does
                not necessarily, or even often, mean "betray", but it does often mean
                "arrest". St Paul may thereforre just have meant, "the night when he
                was arrested", and the bit about Judas may be an overwrite designed to
                calumniate Jesus's brother Judas (Matt. 13.55).
                Martin Edwards.
              • adisciple2 <smosher0@lycos.com>
                I agree that 19:30 (literally, giving up/over the Spirit ) is about Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in Jn., I think it s more
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 9, 2002
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                  I agree that 19:30 (literally, "giving up/over the Spirit") is about
                  Jesus giving the Spirit after his death. But here, as elsewhere in
                  Jn., I think it's more a proleptic anticipation of what Jesus will do
                  (later after his resurrection when he breathes on the disciples and
                  says receive the Spirit, though even this "foreshadows" the later
                  Pentecost event of Acts).

                  This future giving of the Spirit is clearly announced in Jn. 7:37-39
                  (the living water/Spirit will flow out of "his" belly after Jesus is
                  glorified). I think this is also fulfilled in a proleptic way in Jn.
                  19:34, shortly after the verse being discussed (19:30). After the
                  soldier pierces Jesus' side, blood and water come out. The witness
                  of this emphasizes the truth of this account to accent its
                  importance. Thus the water fulfils the living water/Spirit flowing
                  out after his death/glorification.

                  So 19:30 fits into this motif also. Various other passages
                  throughout Jn. could also be cited as similar metaphors for this
                  motif. And much of Jn. 14-16 emphasizes the importance of Jesus
                  sending/giving the Paraclete/Spirit after he departs.

                  Steve Mosher

                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
                  <bobmacdonald@s...> wrote:
                  > RSV has he gave up his spirit
                  >
                  > NET has a literal note : he bowed his head and gave over the spirit
                  >
                  > Mary Coloe in her God Dwells with Us points out that the Greek gave
                  over is
                  > the same as the word for betrayed in 18:2, and 18:5, also the word
                  is used
                  > in 18:35, 36, 19:11, 16 (p189) - i.e. it is a theme in the passion
                  story.
                  >
                  > She suggests that John is referring to a 'handing over' of the
                  Spirit here.
                  >
                  > Any one else have a thought on what this might mean?
                  >
                  > I think I am too influenced by the Bach St John Passion to think of
                  > transference of the Spirit here - not to the disciples anyway.
                  > though perhaps the separation of 'death' is a kind of a
                  contradiction in the
                  > relationships of the Son and the Spirit - i.e. a kind of betrayal.
                  >
                  > weird thoughts
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  > mailto::BobMacDonald@s...
                  > + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
                  >
                  > Catch the foxes for us,
                  > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                  > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                  > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
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