Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: ??? Man healed by the pool

Expand Messages
  • adisciple2
    Hi Charles, Though I am new to this group, I will jump in and try to begin an answer to your questions. The temple has been mentioned before 5:14 only in
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 16, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Charles,

      Though I am new to this group, I will jump in and try to begin an
      answer to your questions.

      The temple has been mentioned before 5:14 only in 2:14f. where the
      context is also a feast of the Jews (2:13, where Passover is the
      feast). So the feast of the Jews in 5:1, along with the sabbath of
      5:9ff., would be reasons why the healed man ends up in the temple. I
      think also the transition from being a lonely outcast for decades to
      being a healed "center of attention" led him to the center of the
      feast and sabbath, viz., the temple.

      As to why Jesus tracked him down, there are again some connections
      with 2:14. In 5:14, it says "Jesus found him in the temple." Cf.
      2:14 ("In the temple he found those who were selling . . .") Jesus
      finds people in order to confront them with the truth. Note also
      1:43 where Jesus found Philip and told him, "Follow me."

      The earlier confrontation in the temple between Jesus and the Jews
      also prepares the reader for further confrontation there between
      Jesus, the Jews, and the healed man. This has become part of the
      story since 5:10 when the Jews confront the man with his breaking the
      law on the sabbath. (The Jews here are leaders, probably Pharisees,
      who had a special concern for their oral traditions about the
      sabbath.) In 5:11 the man tries to put the blame on the one who
      healed him, showing fear of the Jews. He is not just giving
      information but is responding to their accusation.

      Thus in 5:14 when Jesus finds him in the temple celebrating the feast
      and sabbath of the Jews, he tells him to stop sinning or worse will
      happen to him. His sinning so far has been to fear the Jews, and
      then honoring them more than Jesus by trying to put the blame on
      Jesus so the man himself can be cleared. Jesus' confronts him in the
      temple to warn him that if he continues "under" the Jews, afraid of
      their judgment, a worse thing will happen. The worse thing is Jesus'
      own judgment, declared in Jesus' confrontation with the Jews in
      5:22ff. Those who do not honor the Son and who do evil (sin) will
      finally face the resurrection of judgment (5:23,29).

      You also asked about parallel passages. The closest parallel passage
      is Jn. 9 where Jesus heals the blind man. This man also faces the
      Jews/Pharisees in 9:13, who again raise the issue of healing on the
      sabbath (9:14,16). Also, like the healed man of Jn. 5, the healed
      blind man tells the Pharisees that Jesus healed him. But this is not
      done to escape their blame, since in 9:17, when they ask him what he
      thinks of Jesus, he replies "He is a prophet."

      When the healed blind man's parents are then questioned, they respond
      more like the healed man of Jn. 5. They become afraid of the Jews,
      knowing the Jews had agreed that if any confessed Christ, they would
      be put out of the synagogue (9:22).

      On the other hand, the healed blind man becomes even more bold as the
      Jews question him further, even asking them (satirically) if they
      want to hear his story again because they too want to become Jesus'
      disciples (9:27). So this man is a definite contrast to the healed
      man of Jn. 5.

      The result of his confronting the Jews and standing up for Jesus is
      his being thrown out by the Jews (9:34; what his parents feared
      earlier). But in 9:35, Jesus "found" him and revealed further truth
      to him such that he ends up worshiping Jesus (9:38).

      The two healed men of Jn. 5 and 9 are contrasts, representative of
      those who experience miracles/signs and see, or don't see, the fuller
      truth about Jesus and the eternal life he gives.

      Steve Mosher




      --- In johannine_literature@y..., CStarWrk@a... wrote:
      > Group,
      >
      > Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John 5:14-15?
      This is
      > the conclusion of the story of the man by the pool that was
      healed. Jesus
      > comes to the man afterward and tells him to stop sinning and the
      man tells
      > the Jews who had healed him.
      >
      > The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
      >
      > What story is being told?
      >
      > I have misplaced my Moloney book and don't quickly have access to
      what Staley
      > may have said.
      >
      > A lot of questions pop up...
      >
      > Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part of
      the
      > story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the explanations
      by the
      > commentaries I am aware of.
      >
      > Why did Jesus track him down?
      >
      > What was the sin that Jesus referred to?
      >
      > It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to stop
      sinning and
      > the man turned around and told the Jews who Jesus was that the man
      was
      > following Jesus' orders. Most commentaries called the man a
      turncoat or
      > ungrateful scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the
      man was
      > ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...
      >
      > What can be determined about how to analyze this passage from other
      parallel
      > passages in John?
      >
      >
      > Charles Starkey
      > MDIV Fuller Theological Seminary
      > High School Math Teacher
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kymhsm
      Dear Charles,
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 17, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Charles,

        <<<Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John
        5:14-15? This is the conclusion of the story of the man by the
        pool that was healed. Jesus comes to the man afterward and
        tells him to stop sinning and the man tells the Jews who had
        healed him.
        The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
        What story is being told?>>>

        I am not sure how much I can tell you about the story being told
        but I believe there are significant structural issues for this
        passage. Realize, however, that I am arguing from my own
        understanding of the structure. It is not a position that has
        received scholarly acceptance (yet). A – now fairly primitive
        – edition of my work may be found at
        http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/sherpub

        <<<A lot of questions pop up...
        Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part
        of the story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the
        explanations by the commentaries I am aware of.
        Why did Jesus track him down?
        What was the sin that Jesus referred to?>>>

        It may be that because of his disability the man had not been
        able to go to the temple for a long time. If this is so it is only
        logical to find him there. We could expect that he would want to
        give thanks for his healing. For some reason Jesus avoided the
        crowd at Bethzatha pool; his tracking down of the man was
        obviously because was concerned for his spiritual health, not
        just his physical health. The sin is not disclosed and I think there
        is little value in speculating about it.

        Structurally, however, the man's being in the temple is very
        significant. Not present on my web-site but a new section I am
        currently adding to the book is a chapter on the macro-chiasm of
        the Signs and Discourses section of John (1:1-11:44). I was
        motivated to look at this section after reading (and further
        developing) Wayne Brouwer's book on the chiastic structure of
        the Farewell Discourse (Chs 13-17).
        From my own work there are 41 chiastic formations that make up
        the Signs and discourses section (70 for the whole gospel).
        Thirteen of these are the specific Signs and Discourses, one of
        which is the healing of the lame man from 5:1-9a. The rest of the
        story is found in a usual seven-fold structure (vv 9b-18). The
        structures which are neither the signs nor the particular
        discourses which shape this section, i.e. the remaining 28
        structures form a macro-chiasm using the same central
        structure as the Sign and Discourses, i.e. Discourse 3 –
        6:48-51. On either side of the central structure, the
        complementary structures which make up the macro-chiasm
        have matching themes, words and phrases. The complementary
        structure for 5:9b-18 is 8:2-20 where we find Jesus, in the
        temple, this time with a woman, and, with exactly the same
        words as 5:14 (not used anywhere else) saying, "Go and do not
        sin again" (MHKETI hAMARTANE).
        Not only is it significant that John has a man and a woman
        receiving the same instruction from Jesus, but the match
        confirms the place of the later story, the woman caught in
        adultery, in the original text.

        <<<It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to
        stop sinning and the man turned around and told the Jews who
        Jesus was that the man was following Jesus' orders. Most
        commentaries called the man a turncoat or ungrateful
        scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the man was
        ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...>>>

        I do not think that such conclusions about the man are
        necessary. Jesus gave him no prohibitions – apart from not
        sinning – and so he was simply answering the question that,
        previously, he had not been able to answer (5:12).

        <<<What can be determined about how to analyze this passage
        from other parallel passages in John?>>>

        Besides the structural parallels, there are obvious similarities
        with the healing of the blind man in ch 9.

        Sincerely,

        Kym Smith
        Adelaide
        South Australia
        khs@...
      • kymhsm
        Dear Charles,
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 17, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Charles,

          <<<Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John
          5:14-15? This is the conclusion of the story of the man by the
          pool that was healed. Jesus comes to the man afterward and
          tells him to stop sinning and the man tells the Jews who had
          healed him.
          The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
          What story is being told?>>>

          I am not sure how much I can tell you about the story being told
          but I believe there are significant structural issues for this
          passage. Realize, however, that I am arguing from my own
          understanding of the structure. It is not a position that has
          received scholarly acceptance (yet). A – now fairly primitive
          – edition of my work may be found at
          http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/sherpub

          <<<A lot of questions pop up...
          Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part
          of the story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the
          explanations by the commentaries I am aware of.
          Why did Jesus track him down?
          What was the sin that Jesus referred to?>>>

          It may be that because of his disability the man had not been
          able to go to the temple for a long time. If this is so it is only
          logical to find him there. We could expect that he would want to
          give thanks for his healing. For some reason Jesus avoided the
          crowd at Bethzatha pool; his tracking down of the man was
          obviously because was concerned for his spiritual health, not
          just his physical health. The sin is not disclosed and I think there
          is little value in speculating about it.

          Structurally, however, the man's being in the temple is very
          significant. Not present on my web-site but a new section I am
          currently adding to the book is a chapter on the macro-chiasm of
          the Signs and Discourses section of John (1:1-11:44). I was
          motivated to look at this section after reading (and further
          developing) Wayne Brouwer's book on the chiastic structure of
          the Farewell Discourse (Chs 13-17).
          From my own work there are 41 chiastic formations that make up
          the Signs and discourses section (70 for the whole gospel).
          Thirteen of these are the specific Signs and Discourses, one of
          which is the healing of the lame man from 5:1-9a. The rest of the
          story is found in a usual seven-fold structure (vv 9b-18). The
          structures which are neither the signs nor the particular
          discourses which shape this section, i.e. the remaining 28
          structures form a macro-chiasm using the same central
          structure as the Sign and Discourses, i.e. Discourse 3 –
          6:48-51. On either side of the central structure, the
          complementary structures which make up the macro-chiasm
          have matching themes, words and phrases. The complementary
          structure for 5:9b-18 is 8:2-20 where we find Jesus, in the
          temple, this time with a woman, and, with exactly the same
          words as 5:14 (not used anywhere else) saying, "Go and do not
          sin again" (MHKETI hAMARTANE).
          Not only is it significant that John has a man and a woman
          receiving the same instruction from Jesus, but the match
          confirms the place of the later story, the woman caught in
          adultery, in the original text.

          <<<It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to
          stop sinning and the man turned around and told the Jews who
          Jesus was that the man was following Jesus' orders. Most
          commentaries called the man a turncoat or ungrateful
          scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the man was
          ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...>>>

          I do not think that such conclusions about the man are
          necessary. Jesus gave him no prohibitions – apart from not
          sinning – and so he was simply answering the question that,
          previously, he had not been able to answer (5:12).

          <<<What can be determined about how to analyze this passage
          from other parallel passages in John?>>>

          Besides the structural parallels, there are obvious similarities
          with the healing of the blind man in ch 9.

          Sincerely,

          Kym Smith
          Adelaide
          South Australia
          khs@...
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.