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??? Man healed by the pool

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  • CStarWrk@aol.com
    Group, Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John 5:14-15? This is the conclusion of the story of the man by the pool that was healed. Jesus
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 15, 2002
      Group,

      Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John 5:14-15? This is
      the conclusion of the story of the man by the pool that was healed. Jesus
      comes to the man afterward and tells him to stop sinning and the man tells
      the Jews who had healed him.

      The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.

      What story is being told?

      I have misplaced my Moloney book and don't quickly have access to what Staley
      may have said.

      A lot of questions pop up...

      Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part of the
      story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the explanations by the
      commentaries I am aware of.

      Why did Jesus track him down?

      What was the sin that Jesus referred to?

      It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to stop sinning and
      the man turned around and told the Jews who Jesus was that the man was
      following Jesus' orders. Most commentaries called the man a turncoat or
      ungrateful scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the man was
      ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...

      What can be determined about how to analyze this passage from other parallel
      passages in John?


      Charles Starkey
      MDIV Fuller Theological Seminary
      High School Math Teacher


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • adisciple2
      Hi Charles, Though I am new to this group, I will jump in and try to begin an answer to your questions. The temple has been mentioned before 5:14 only in
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 16, 2002
        Hi Charles,

        Though I am new to this group, I will jump in and try to begin an
        answer to your questions.

        The temple has been mentioned before 5:14 only in 2:14f. where the
        context is also a feast of the Jews (2:13, where Passover is the
        feast). So the feast of the Jews in 5:1, along with the sabbath of
        5:9ff., would be reasons why the healed man ends up in the temple. I
        think also the transition from being a lonely outcast for decades to
        being a healed "center of attention" led him to the center of the
        feast and sabbath, viz., the temple.

        As to why Jesus tracked him down, there are again some connections
        with 2:14. In 5:14, it says "Jesus found him in the temple." Cf.
        2:14 ("In the temple he found those who were selling . . .") Jesus
        finds people in order to confront them with the truth. Note also
        1:43 where Jesus found Philip and told him, "Follow me."

        The earlier confrontation in the temple between Jesus and the Jews
        also prepares the reader for further confrontation there between
        Jesus, the Jews, and the healed man. This has become part of the
        story since 5:10 when the Jews confront the man with his breaking the
        law on the sabbath. (The Jews here are leaders, probably Pharisees,
        who had a special concern for their oral traditions about the
        sabbath.) In 5:11 the man tries to put the blame on the one who
        healed him, showing fear of the Jews. He is not just giving
        information but is responding to their accusation.

        Thus in 5:14 when Jesus finds him in the temple celebrating the feast
        and sabbath of the Jews, he tells him to stop sinning or worse will
        happen to him. His sinning so far has been to fear the Jews, and
        then honoring them more than Jesus by trying to put the blame on
        Jesus so the man himself can be cleared. Jesus' confronts him in the
        temple to warn him that if he continues "under" the Jews, afraid of
        their judgment, a worse thing will happen. The worse thing is Jesus'
        own judgment, declared in Jesus' confrontation with the Jews in
        5:22ff. Those who do not honor the Son and who do evil (sin) will
        finally face the resurrection of judgment (5:23,29).

        You also asked about parallel passages. The closest parallel passage
        is Jn. 9 where Jesus heals the blind man. This man also faces the
        Jews/Pharisees in 9:13, who again raise the issue of healing on the
        sabbath (9:14,16). Also, like the healed man of Jn. 5, the healed
        blind man tells the Pharisees that Jesus healed him. But this is not
        done to escape their blame, since in 9:17, when they ask him what he
        thinks of Jesus, he replies "He is a prophet."

        When the healed blind man's parents are then questioned, they respond
        more like the healed man of Jn. 5. They become afraid of the Jews,
        knowing the Jews had agreed that if any confessed Christ, they would
        be put out of the synagogue (9:22).

        On the other hand, the healed blind man becomes even more bold as the
        Jews question him further, even asking them (satirically) if they
        want to hear his story again because they too want to become Jesus'
        disciples (9:27). So this man is a definite contrast to the healed
        man of Jn. 5.

        The result of his confronting the Jews and standing up for Jesus is
        his being thrown out by the Jews (9:34; what his parents feared
        earlier). But in 9:35, Jesus "found" him and revealed further truth
        to him such that he ends up worshiping Jesus (9:38).

        The two healed men of Jn. 5 and 9 are contrasts, representative of
        those who experience miracles/signs and see, or don't see, the fuller
        truth about Jesus and the eternal life he gives.

        Steve Mosher




        --- In johannine_literature@y..., CStarWrk@a... wrote:
        > Group,
        >
        > Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John 5:14-15?
        This is
        > the conclusion of the story of the man by the pool that was
        healed. Jesus
        > comes to the man afterward and tells him to stop sinning and the
        man tells
        > the Jews who had healed him.
        >
        > The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
        >
        > What story is being told?
        >
        > I have misplaced my Moloney book and don't quickly have access to
        what Staley
        > may have said.
        >
        > A lot of questions pop up...
        >
        > Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part of
        the
        > story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the explanations
        by the
        > commentaries I am aware of.
        >
        > Why did Jesus track him down?
        >
        > What was the sin that Jesus referred to?
        >
        > It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to stop
        sinning and
        > the man turned around and told the Jews who Jesus was that the man
        was
        > following Jesus' orders. Most commentaries called the man a
        turncoat or
        > ungrateful scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the
        man was
        > ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...
        >
        > What can be determined about how to analyze this passage from other
        parallel
        > passages in John?
        >
        >
        > Charles Starkey
        > MDIV Fuller Theological Seminary
        > High School Math Teacher
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • kymhsm
        Dear Charles,
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 17, 2002
          Dear Charles,

          <<<Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John
          5:14-15? This is the conclusion of the story of the man by the
          pool that was healed. Jesus comes to the man afterward and
          tells him to stop sinning and the man tells the Jews who had
          healed him.
          The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
          What story is being told?>>>

          I am not sure how much I can tell you about the story being told
          but I believe there are significant structural issues for this
          passage. Realize, however, that I am arguing from my own
          understanding of the structure. It is not a position that has
          received scholarly acceptance (yet). A – now fairly primitive
          – edition of my work may be found at
          http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/sherpub

          <<<A lot of questions pop up...
          Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part
          of the story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the
          explanations by the commentaries I am aware of.
          Why did Jesus track him down?
          What was the sin that Jesus referred to?>>>

          It may be that because of his disability the man had not been
          able to go to the temple for a long time. If this is so it is only
          logical to find him there. We could expect that he would want to
          give thanks for his healing. For some reason Jesus avoided the
          crowd at Bethzatha pool; his tracking down of the man was
          obviously because was concerned for his spiritual health, not
          just his physical health. The sin is not disclosed and I think there
          is little value in speculating about it.

          Structurally, however, the man's being in the temple is very
          significant. Not present on my web-site but a new section I am
          currently adding to the book is a chapter on the macro-chiasm of
          the Signs and Discourses section of John (1:1-11:44). I was
          motivated to look at this section after reading (and further
          developing) Wayne Brouwer's book on the chiastic structure of
          the Farewell Discourse (Chs 13-17).
          From my own work there are 41 chiastic formations that make up
          the Signs and discourses section (70 for the whole gospel).
          Thirteen of these are the specific Signs and Discourses, one of
          which is the healing of the lame man from 5:1-9a. The rest of the
          story is found in a usual seven-fold structure (vv 9b-18). The
          structures which are neither the signs nor the particular
          discourses which shape this section, i.e. the remaining 28
          structures form a macro-chiasm using the same central
          structure as the Sign and Discourses, i.e. Discourse 3 –
          6:48-51. On either side of the central structure, the
          complementary structures which make up the macro-chiasm
          have matching themes, words and phrases. The complementary
          structure for 5:9b-18 is 8:2-20 where we find Jesus, in the
          temple, this time with a woman, and, with exactly the same
          words as 5:14 (not used anywhere else) saying, "Go and do not
          sin again" (MHKETI hAMARTANE).
          Not only is it significant that John has a man and a woman
          receiving the same instruction from Jesus, but the match
          confirms the place of the later story, the woman caught in
          adultery, in the original text.

          <<<It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to
          stop sinning and the man turned around and told the Jews who
          Jesus was that the man was following Jesus' orders. Most
          commentaries called the man a turncoat or ungrateful
          scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the man was
          ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...>>>

          I do not think that such conclusions about the man are
          necessary. Jesus gave him no prohibitions – apart from not
          sinning – and so he was simply answering the question that,
          previously, he had not been able to answer (5:12).

          <<<What can be determined about how to analyze this passage
          from other parallel passages in John?>>>

          Besides the structural parallels, there are obvious similarities
          with the healing of the blind man in ch 9.

          Sincerely,

          Kym Smith
          Adelaide
          South Australia
          khs@...
        • kymhsm
          Dear Charles,
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 17, 2002
            Dear Charles,

            <<<Does anyone have any insight to what was going on in John
            5:14-15? This is the conclusion of the story of the man by the
            pool that was healed. Jesus comes to the man afterward and
            tells him to stop sinning and the man tells the Jews who had
            healed him.
            The traditional commentaries just aren't very helpful.
            What story is being told?>>>

            I am not sure how much I can tell you about the story being told
            but I believe there are significant structural issues for this
            passage. Realize, however, that I am arguing from my own
            understanding of the structure. It is not a position that has
            received scholarly acceptance (yet). A – now fairly primitive
            – edition of my work may be found at
            http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/sherpub

            <<<A lot of questions pop up...
            Why was the man in the temple? Surely this is an important part
            of the story, but the fact isn't incorporated into any of the
            explanations by the commentaries I am aware of.
            Why did Jesus track him down?
            What was the sin that Jesus referred to?>>>

            It may be that because of his disability the man had not been
            able to go to the temple for a long time. If this is so it is only
            logical to find him there. We could expect that he would want to
            give thanks for his healing. For some reason Jesus avoided the
            crowd at Bethzatha pool; his tracking down of the man was
            obviously because was concerned for his spiritual health, not
            just his physical health. The sin is not disclosed and I think there
            is little value in speculating about it.

            Structurally, however, the man's being in the temple is very
            significant. Not present on my web-site but a new section I am
            currently adding to the book is a chapter on the macro-chiasm of
            the Signs and Discourses section of John (1:1-11:44). I was
            motivated to look at this section after reading (and further
            developing) Wayne Brouwer's book on the chiastic structure of
            the Farewell Discourse (Chs 13-17).
            From my own work there are 41 chiastic formations that make up
            the Signs and discourses section (70 for the whole gospel).
            Thirteen of these are the specific Signs and Discourses, one of
            which is the healing of the lame man from 5:1-9a. The rest of the
            story is found in a usual seven-fold structure (vv 9b-18). The
            structures which are neither the signs nor the particular
            discourses which shape this section, i.e. the remaining 28
            structures form a macro-chiasm using the same central
            structure as the Sign and Discourses, i.e. Discourse 3 –
            6:48-51. On either side of the central structure, the
            complementary structures which make up the macro-chiasm
            have matching themes, words and phrases. The complementary
            structure for 5:9b-18 is 8:2-20 where we find Jesus, in the
            temple, this time with a woman, and, with exactly the same
            words as 5:14 (not used anywhere else) saying, "Go and do not
            sin again" (MHKETI hAMARTANE).
            Not only is it significant that John has a man and a woman
            receiving the same instruction from Jesus, but the match
            confirms the place of the later story, the woman caught in
            adultery, in the original text.

            <<<It seems logical to suggest that when Jesus told the man to
            stop sinning and the man turned around and told the Jews who
            Jesus was that the man was following Jesus' orders. Most
            commentaries called the man a turncoat or ungrateful
            scoundrel. I see nothing in the text to think that the man was
            ungrateful or that he intended to cause problems for Jesus...>>>

            I do not think that such conclusions about the man are
            necessary. Jesus gave him no prohibitions – apart from not
            sinning – and so he was simply answering the question that,
            previously, he had not been able to answer (5:12).

            <<<What can be determined about how to analyze this passage
            from other parallel passages in John?>>>

            Besides the structural parallels, there are obvious similarities
            with the healing of the blind man in ch 9.

            Sincerely,

            Kym Smith
            Adelaide
            South Australia
            khs@...
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