[John_Lit] Re: the adelphoi
- In a message dated 11/3/1999 8:11:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<< >I don't see how Mary "is one of the group included in 'your Father'". It
>a direct address statement, and one that is supposed to be uttered BY Maryto
>the (presumably) all male group of disciples (cf. 20:24: Thomas, one of theI take your point here but is there a strong grammatical argument for
reading this as if it were in quotation marks and therefore the direct
words Mary is to speak to the disciples group as if she is not included
within that group. Is there in the grammar of the statement the equivalent
of "Thus says the Lord,'I go to ....'
>>I think the phrase could have been put in indirect discourse (as it is, by
the way, in some modern versions), and then a reference to Mary would
certainly have been implied in the pronoun "your". Because it is in direct
discourse in the Greek, such a reading seems to me to be excluded, though I
am not sure how much, if anything at all, should be made out of this fact. I
think one would have to assume that Mary as an historical person, and a
disciple of Jesus, must herself belong, in John's thinking, to Jesus' new
family as a "sister", whose "father" is God. But I am not sure how interested
the Evangelist is in her "as an historical person", so her symbolic value to
John perhaps dictates other relational emphases in his text.
On second thought, I wonder if what I said above is really correct. Even if
the statement is direct discourse, I wonder if the "your" might not still
implicate Mary herself. I'm not sure any more.
- On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, David Rensberger wrote:
> them from this role. It may be, then, that 20:17 is meant to reinforceThis displacement, however, is not unknown in the Synoptics. See e.g.
> this displacement of Jesus' physical brothers by his believing
Mk. 3:31-35; 10:28-30parr.
- In Jn 20:17, the matter of direct vs. indirect discourse is rather a tough
call. But it seems to me it has to be indirect because Mary is not told to
say, "I am ascending" (*she* is obviously not ascending), but either "He is
ascending" or "He said, 'I am ascending.'"
Thus I would translate, "Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending
to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." This leaves open
just a crack the possibility that Mary might be included in the "your," but
even as indirect discourse the possibility is remote at best. The play
between "brothers" and "Father" tells against it, as does the accent on the
fact that Mary is to say it "to them" (autois).
Just by the way, notice also the abrupt shift from direct to indirect
discourse in v 18, a shift which seems to have bothered the scribes so that
they tried out a couple of variants: Mary told the disciples that "'I have
seen the Lord,' and he said these things to her."