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[John_Lit] Re: the adelphoi

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  • Maluflen@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/3/1999 8:11:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, M.Coloe@christ.acu.edu.au writes: I don t see how Mary is one of the group included in
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 3, 1999
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      In a message dated 11/3/1999 8:11:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      M.Coloe@... writes:

      << >I don't see how Mary "is one of the group included in 'your Father'". It
      is
      >a direct address statement, and one that is supposed to be uttered BY Mary
      to
      >the (presumably) all male group of disciples (cf. 20:24: Thomas, one of the
      >twelve...).

      I take your point here but is there a strong grammatical argument for
      reading this as if it were in quotation marks and therefore the direct
      words Mary is to speak to the disciples group as if she is not included
      within that group. Is there in the grammar of the statement the equivalent
      of "Thus says the Lord,'I go to ....'
      >>

      I think the phrase could have been put in indirect discourse (as it is, by
      the way, in some modern versions), and then a reference to Mary would
      certainly have been implied in the pronoun "your". Because it is in direct
      discourse in the Greek, such a reading seems to me to be excluded, though I
      am not sure how much, if anything at all, should be made out of this fact. I
      think one would have to assume that Mary as an historical person, and a
      disciple of Jesus, must herself belong, in John's thinking, to Jesus' new
      family as a "sister", whose "father" is God. But I am not sure how interested
      the Evangelist is in her "as an historical person", so her symbolic value to
      John perhaps dictates other relational emphases in his text.

      On second thought, I wonder if what I said above is really correct. Even if
      the statement is direct discourse, I wonder if the "your" might not still
      implicate Mary herself. I'm not sure any more.

      Leonard Maluf
    • ejdanna@trapdoor.arvotek.net
      ... This displacement, however, is not unknown in the Synoptics. See e.g. Mk. 3:31-35; 10:28-30parr. Elizabeth Danna
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 4, 1999
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        On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, David Rensberger wrote:

        > them from this role. It may be, then, that 20:17 is meant to reinforce
        > this displacement of Jesus' physical brothers by his believing
        > disciples.
        This displacement, however, is not unknown in the Synoptics. See e.g.
        Mk. 3:31-35; 10:28-30parr.
        Elizabeth Danna
      • ProfRam@aol.com
        In Jn 20:17, the matter of direct vs. indirect discourse is rather a tough call. But it seems to me it has to be indirect because Mary is not told to say, I
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 4, 1999
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          In Jn 20:17, the matter of direct vs. indirect discourse is rather a tough
          call. But it seems to me it has to be indirect because Mary is not told to
          say, "I am ascending" (*she* is obviously not ascending), but either "He is
          ascending" or "He said, 'I am ascending.'"

          Thus I would translate, "Go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending
          to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." This leaves open
          just a crack the possibility that Mary might be included in the "your," but
          even as indirect discourse the possibility is remote at best. The play
          between "brothers" and "Father" tells against it, as does the accent on the
          fact that Mary is to say it "to them" (autois).

          Just by the way, notice also the abrupt shift from direct to indirect
          discourse in v 18, a shift which seems to have bothered the scribes so that
          they tried out a couple of variants: Mary told the disciples that "'I have
          seen the Lord,' and he said these things to her."

          Ramsey Michaels
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