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Re: [John_Lit] Jesus and his disciples (Jn 6:11)

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  • John E Staton
    Yuri wrote: Thus, it sure looks to me like the image of the Gentle Jesus was a ... Quite right. In fact, since about the turn of the twentieth century when
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 31 3:16 PM
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      Yuri wrote:
      Thus, it sure looks to me like the image of the "Gentle Jesus" was a
      > feature of the early versions of all four canonical gospels. Perhaps some
      > biblical scholar has suggested this idea in the past but, so far, we don't
      > really know for sure. In any case, even if this idea has been suggested in
      > the past, it seems like it has been more or less forgotten in recent
      > scholarship.

      Quite right. In fact, since about the turn of the twentieth century when
      Albert Scweizer wrote: "The Quest for the Historical Jesus". The view you
      espouse is almost exactly the view of the "Leben Jesu" school with whom
      Schweizer was discussing. Unfortunately, it appeared that on closer
      inspection, the conflict between Jesus and the authorities is in the
      earliest traditions, and that the various 19th century "Lives of Jesus" were
      based more on wishful thinking than on sound scholarship. Of course, if you
      immediately assign any passage containing conflict to a late tradition, you
      can make a case, but it will be a case based on circular reasoning. We need
      to know the objective basis of your criteria. And I am afraid we need more
      than Old Syriac translations.

      Best Wishes
      JOHN E STATON
      www.jestaton.org
      jestaton@...

      >
      > All the best,
      >
      > Yuri.
      >
      > Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
      >
      > Reality is that which, when you stop believing
      > in it, doesn't go away -=O=- Philip K. Dick
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 3
      > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:14:41 -0500
      > From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
      > Subject: Re: Mt 17:7 & Jn 6:11
      >
      > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      >
      > > But to come back to John 6:11, does anybody have a rational explanation
      > > why the disciples should be omitted from this verse? In other words, in
      > > what way should Aland's/UBS text here be seen as preferable to KJV text?
      >
      > Leaving aside the questions of whether it is accurate to speak of the
      "KJV" text
      > as if this was a Greek MS (or even a critical text like the NA27/28 or the
      UBS 4),
      > not to mention that you have not stated your grounds for judging an
      explanation
      > "rational", the answer to your question is "yes". See Barrett (to whom you
      > appealed before on matters Johannine), Brown, Schnakenburg, & Dodd ( to
      name just
      > a few of the commentators) who have explained (a) John's depiction of
      Jesus
      > acting independently and without the assistance of the disciples as
      something
      > which was specifically meant to recall the last supper and (b) the
      appearance of
      > TOIS MAQHTAIS (AUTOU), hOI DE MAQHTAI TOIS ANAKEIMENOIS [OXLOIS} hOMOIWS
      in
      > Sinaiticus(C), D K M U delta Phi Lamda Psi etc as due to assimilation of
      the text
      > of Jn 6:11 to the Synoptic accounts of the story.
      >
      > [Side note: isn't it strange that you -- who so often sport yourself as a
      master
      > in the field of NT studies, not to mention one who is intimately familiar
      with
      > what members of the NT scholarly guild are saying and feeling -- should be
      so
      > unaware not only **that** some of the most noteworthy and reputable
      Johannine
      > scholars have been noting and commenting upon the differences between Jn
      6:11 and
      > its parallels in the SynGospels but of **what** they have have said on the
      matter
      > of the differences. Does anyone have a "rational explanation" for this?]
      >
      > Now you may not **like** this explanation, but that's neither here nor
      there. The
      > fact is that, quite contrary to what you appear to be aware of given your
      question
      > above, an explanation **has** indeed been offered. Moreover, given the
      close
      > correspondence between Jn 6:11 on the one hand and Mk. 14:22 and 1 Cor
      11:23 on
      > the other, it would be special pleading on your part were you to be true
      to form
      > and go on to dismiss this explanation as "not rational".
      >
      > JG
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Floor 1
      > Chicago, Illinois 60626
      > e-mail jgibson000@...
      > jgibson000@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 4
      > Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:30:11 -0500
      > From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
      > Subject: Re: Jesus and his disciples (Jn 6:11)
      >
      > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
      >
      > > Thank you, Jack, this is helpful. But I think this assumes that the
      > > original author of Jn was Greek, which may not have necessarily been the
      > > case.
      >
      > What does the ethnic identity of the author of the Gospel of John have to
      do with
      > whether anyone before you has come up with the idea that Jesus was
      originally more
      > "gentle" than he is depicted in the canonical Gospels?
      >
      > JG
      >
      > --
      > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
      > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
      > Floor 1
      > Chicago, Illinois 60626
      > e-mail jgibson000@...
      > jgibson000@...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      > ________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... I m arguing that, in the earliest version of Jn, Jesus was portrayed more as Gentle Jesus. If so, then whoever tampered with these verses later was
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 1, 2002
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        On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
        > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
        >
        > > Thank you, Jack, this is helpful. But I think this assumes that the
        > > original author of Jn was Greek, which may not have necessarily been the
        > > case.
        >
        > What does the ethnic identity of the author of the Gospel of John have
        > to do with whether anyone before you has come up with the idea that
        > Jesus was originally more "gentle" than he is depicted in the
        > canonical Gospels?

        I'm arguing that, in the earliest version of Jn, Jesus was portrayed more
        as Gentle Jesus. If so, then whoever tampered with these verses later was
        probably motivated by the desire to distance Jesus from his Jewish
        disciples, and from his Jewish milieu more generally. This later editor
        may have been a Greek Gentile convert.

        Yours,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

        Reality is that which, when you stop believing
        in it, doesn't go away -=O=- Philip K. Dick
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Dear John, Thanks for this tip. Indeed, as I ve found out already after a bit of a search, the Leben Jesu school did try to portray Jesus as mostly
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 3, 2002
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          On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, John E Staton wrote:

          > Yuri wrote:
          > Thus, it sure looks to me like the image of the "Gentle Jesus" was a
          > > feature of the early versions of all four canonical gospels. Perhaps some
          > > biblical scholar has suggested this idea in the past but, so far, we don't
          > > really know for sure. In any case, even if this idea has been suggested in
          > > the past, it seems like it has been more or less forgotten in recent
          > > scholarship.
          >
          > Quite right. In fact, since about the turn of the twentieth century
          > when Albert Scweizer wrote: "The Quest for the Historical Jesus". The
          > view you espouse is almost exactly the view of the "Leben Jesu" school
          > with whom Schweizer was discussing.

          Dear John,

          Thanks for this tip. Indeed, as I've found out already after a bit of a
          search, the "Leben Jesu" school did try to portray Jesus as mostly gentle
          and mild. And also, the same has been said of Ernest Renan's "The Life Of
          Jesus". They interpreted him as a gentile Galilean shepherd, while it
          seems like they tended to disregard some other passages in the Gospels
          where Jesus is not portrayed as so gentle and mild.

          But so far, I've been unable to find out if these scholars of the past
          have ever used textual criticism to make their point.

          > Unfortunately, it appeared that on closer inspection, the conflict
          > between Jesus and the authorities is in the earliest traditions,

          Actually, I'm not about to deny that the conflict between Jesus and the
          authorities was in the earliest traditions. In fact, my examination of the
          early textual traditions indicates to me that Jesus is indeed portrayed
          there as engaging in various conflicts with the Jewish religious
          authorities of the day.

          What I'm actually saying is that, in the earliest traditions, Jesus was
          portrayed as very kind and gentle in his interactions with the people of
          Israel, with his disciples, as well as with his family. But later these
          passages were corrupted, and Jesus became more intolerant with these 3
          groups.

          > and that the various 19th century "Lives of Jesus" were based more on
          > wishful thinking than on sound scholarship.

          This may well be so...

          > Of course, if you immediately assign any passage containing conflict
          > to a late tradition,

          No, this is not my intention at all.

          > you can make a case, but it will be a case based on circular
          > reasoning. We need to know the objective basis of your criteria.

          My objective basis is the large number of passages I'm finding in various
          Western texts, and in the Old Syriac gospels in particular, that portray
          Jesus as a Gentle Jesus. And I'm not aware that anyone has commented on
          this before.

          > And I am afraid we need more than Old Syriac translations.

          Well, how are the Old Syriac translations any worse than the Greek
          translations, that most people go by? After all, the Old Syriac MSS are
          not any younger than the best Greek MSS.

          Best wishes,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          It is a far, far better thing to have a firm anchor in nonsense than
          to put out on the troubled seas of thought -=O=- John K. Galbraith
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