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Re: [John_Lit] water to wine

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  • fmmccoy
    ... From: Bob MacDonald To: Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:53 PM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water to wine

      (Bob McDonald)
      > This is a bit of an unconnected question - what is the symbolism of water
      in
      > John's writing? Is it deliberately consistent or not? The writer of
      > Ephesians specifically identifies it with the word - I wonder whence this
      > identification? Is that the identification meant in 1 John 5? For
      > convenience I have quickly summarized the usage in G John and 1 John.

      (Frank McCoy)
      In the teachings of Philo, there is a spiritual water, superior to physical
      water, he calls Wisdom. I think the same basic idea is also found in
      Johannine thought, but with this spiritual water called the Spirit rather
      than Wisdom.

      (Bob)
      > John 2:9 Water into wine: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water
      > that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which
      drew
      > the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

      (Frank)
      In the teachings of Philo, Wisdom is a spiritual water that fills the Word
      (Logos). As such, when he pours her, as an outpouring of his very self,
      into human souls, she becomes a spiritual wine that brings joy to these
      human souls.

      See Som ii (245 & 249), where Philo states, "It is this Word which one of
      Moses' company compared to a river, when he said in the Psalms 'the river of
      God is full of water (Ps. lxv. (lxiv.) 10); where surely it were senseless
      to suppose that the words can properly refer to any of the rivers of earth.
      No, he is representing the Divine Word as full of the stream of
      Wisdom....And when the happy soul holds out the sacred goblet of its own
      reason, who is that pours into it the holy cupfuls of true gladness gladness
      but the Word, the Cup-bearer of God and Master of the feast, who is also
      none other than the draught which he pours--his own self free from all
      dilution, the delight, the sweetening, the exhilaration, the merriment, the
      ambrosian drug (to take for own use the poet's terms) whose medicine gives
      joy and gladness?"

      So, I suggest, in the Johannine narrative of the wedding at Cana, the
      turning of the water into wine symbolizes how what Philo calls Wisdom can be
      transformed within a human soul from a spiritual water to a spiritual wine.

      In line with this, in the Johannine narrative, the water is turned into wine
      within a hudria (water-jar)--for, in the teachings of Philo, a hudria
      can symbolize a human mind as a receiver of the spiritual water of Wisdom.

      So, in Post (136), Philo states, "Rebecca, it says, went down to the spring
      to fill her hudrian, and came up again. For whence is it likely that a mind
      thirsting for sound sense should be filled save from the Wisdom of God, that
      never-failing spring,...".

      (Bob)
      > John 3:5 Born of water: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
      > Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into
      the
      > kingdom of God.

      (Frank)
      As a spiritual water that flows out of the Word, Wisdom can enable one to
      gain eternal life.

      So, in Fuga (97), Philo declares, "The man who is capable of running swiftly
      it bids stay not to draw breath but pass forward to the supreme Divine Word,
      who is the fountain of Wisdom, in order that he may draw from the stream
      and, released from death, gain life eternal as his prize."

      I suggest that his relates to John 3:5: with, in it, the second birth being
      one's "birth" into eternal life and with the Spirit being the spiritual
      water, called Wisdom by Philo, that brings about this second "birth".

      In this case, the phrase of "of water and [of] the Spirit" can be taken two
      ways.

      Taken the first way, it is declaration that, to enter the Kingdom of God,
      one must both be baptized by physical water and by the spiritual water of
      the Spirit.

      Taken the second way, it is understood to mean, "of the [spiritual] water
      and [of] the Spirit". In this case, it is a double reference to the
      Spirit--just as, in James 3:9, "the Lord and Father" is a double reference
      to God.

      The key point in the above discussion is that, judging by this passage, the
      spiritual water that is called Wisdom in the teachings of Philo is called
      the Spirit in the Johannine tradition.

      (Bob)
      > John 3:23 Baptised in water: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to
      > Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were
      baptized.

      (Frank)
      I think that John 3:23 relates to John 1:33, where John the Baptist states,
      "He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the
      Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."
      (RSV)

      In 1:33, I suggest,. John acts as a predecessor for the Word (compare John
      1:6 and 1:15), with his water baptism being a physical analog of the
      spiritual baptism of one's soul by the spiritual water (called the Spirit in
      the Johannine tradition) that pours forth from this Word.

      So, in 3:23, I think, what we have is John baptizing people in physical
      water as a fore-shadowing of the coming of the Word: who will baptize worthy
      souls with the spiritual water called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit
      in the Johannine tradition..

      (Bob)
      > John 4:10 Water of life: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest
      > the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou
      > wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

      (Frank)
      Here, I think, Jesus speaks as the Word: within whom is the spiritual water
      called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition.
      This is living water because through it the human soul can gain eternal
      life. If you ask of this spiritual water from the Word, he will give your
      soul to drink of it and your soul will, thereby, gain eternal life.

      (Bob)
      > John 4:46 water and wine again: So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee,
      > where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son
      > was sick at Capernaum.

      (Frank)
      See above, on 2:9, for the turning of the water into wine.

      (Bob)
      > John 5:3 water and troubled movement: In these lay a great multitude of
      > impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the
      > water.

      (Frank)
      I think that, we are to understand, this symbolically represents how the
      souls of some of the spiritually crippled lay near to the spiritual water
      (the Wisdom of Philo's teachings and the Spirit of the Johannine tradition),
      hoping to be spiritually healed by its movement into their souls.

      Note that, in 5:14, after healing a crippled man there, Jesus warns him not
      to sin again lest something worse happen to him. The idea, I think, is not
      so much that sin engenders physical crippling as that sin spiritually
      cripples and maims one.

      (Bob)
      > John 7:38 living waters from the belly: He that believeth on me, as the
      > scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

      (Frank)
      In the teachings of Philo, as pointed out above, Wisdom can be likened to a
      spiritual water that can fill the spiritual hudria (i.e., mind) of a human
      being. Once in one's mind, this spiritual water of Wisdom can then be
      "poured out" as uttered speech into the souls of eager disciples.

      So, in Post (146), Philo relates, "Rebecca is therefore to be commended for
      following the ordinances of the Father and letting down from a higher
      positon the vessel which contains Wisdom, called the hudrian on to her
      "arm", and for holding out to the mathete (disciple) the teaching which he
      is able to receive.

      This uttering of Wisdom to disciples can be likened to the flowing forth of
      streams of water. So, in Post (138), Philo relates, "All she needs is just
      a pitcher, which is a figure of a vessel containing the ruling faculty as
      it pours forth like water its copious streams."

      I think that all this relates to John 7:38. In this case, the "belly"
      symbolizes the mind and the streams of living water that flow from it are
      the spiritual water (called Wisdom in the teachings of Philo and the Spirit
      in the Johannine tradition) as uttered by a possessor of it into the souls
      of disciples listening to these streams of discourse.

      Indeed, that the rivers of living water in 7:38 are what is called the
      Spirit in the Johannine tradition is confirmed in the very next verse (i.e.,
      7:39), "But this spoke he of the Spirit,...".

      (Bob)
      > John 13:5 footwashing: After that he poureth water into a bason, and began
      > to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith
      he
      > was girded.

      (Frank)
      This is, I think, a symbolic action, symbolizing how the spiritual water
      (called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition)
      poured out by the Word can cleanse one's soul.

      In this case, the feet of the disciples symbolizes their souls. Compare
      Exodus (Book I. 19), where Philo likens one's feet to one's soul, stating,
      "For, He says, they must have shoes 'in their feet' which is impossible and
      cannot be done, for the feet of the wearers are different from the
      shoes....And so, He says, let not the inanimate be a covering for that which
      has a soul but, on the contrary, let the animate (be a cover) for the
      inanimate in order that the better may not be held and contained by the bad
      but the bad by the better. For the Creator has made the soul queen and
      mistress of the body, and the body the obedient servant and slave of the
      soul."

      If this is the inner meaning of the action in 13:5, this explains why Jesus
      states in 13:10, "He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his
      feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you."

      In this case, it can be thusly paraphrased, "He who has bathed in physical
      water does not need to wash, except for his spiritual feet, i.e., his soul,
      for which he needs to be cleansed by the spiritual water that pours out from
      me as the Word, but he is physically clean all over, and you disciples are
      clean in both body and soul, except for one (i.e., Judas): who is still
      unclean in his "feet", i.e., soul, because he plans to betray me."

      (Bob)
      > John 19:34 blood and water: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced
      his
      > side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

      (Frank)
      The spiritual water (which Philo called Wisdom), poured out by the Word,
      that can purify one's soul, is also a spiritual blood. So, in Heres (182),
      Philo states, "He (i.e., Moses) took, we read, the half of the blood and
      poured it into mixing bowls and the half he poured upon the altar, to shew
      us that sacred wisdom is of a twofold kind, divine (i.e., Wisdom) and human
      (i.e., wisdom)." Then, shortly thereafter (185), he goes on to relate that
      the Word uses the divine blood (i.e., Wisdom) to cleanse even one's senses,
      stating, "The eyes are the 'bowls' of sight, the ears of hearing, the
      nostrils of the sense of smell, and each of the others has its fitting
      vessel. On these bowls the holy Word pours of the blood, desiring that our
      irrational part should become quickened and become in some sense rational,
      following the divine courses of the mind".

      In 19:34, then, I think that the blood and water pouring from Jesus
      symbolically signify that he is the Word: he from whom flows the spiritual
      water and blood called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition. On an even
      deeper level, as the physical water and blood draining from his body signify
      the draining away of his physical life, so the spritual water and blood of
      the Spirit draining from his soul signifies the draining away of his
      soul-life, so that he totally dies, in both body and soul, on the cross.

      (Bob)
      > 1 John 5:6 blood and water: This is he that came by water and blood,
      [even]
      > Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the
      > Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

      (Frank)
      The meaning, I think, is that Jesus Christ came by the Spirit, who is not
      just the spiritual water, but the spiritual blood as well. Further, it is
      this Spirit, who is the Truth that can flow as rivers of discourse from a
      soul, who bears witness to the truthfulness of this statement.

      (Bob)
      > 1 John 5:8 consistency of the witness: And there are three that bear
      witness
      > in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree
      in
      > one.

      (Frank)
      They agree in one because they are one and the same thing--the water being
      the spiritual water that is the Spirit and the blood being the spiritual
      blood that is the Spirit. So, what one affirms, they all affirm.

      Bob, thank your for this opportunity to discuss these passages and how they
      might be inter-related.

      Frank McCoy
      1809 N. English Apt. 17
      Maplewood, MN USA 55109
    • Lorna Wilson
      Bob, You mentioned something interesting in the relationship between the living water motif in the fourth gospel and the OT as you cited several references
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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        Bob,

        You mentioned something interesting in the relationship between the 'living
        water' motif in the fourth gospel and the OT as you cited several references
        (Ge 26:19 Le 14:5 and Song 4:15). Now you have caught my attention because I
        wrote a paper last year on Psalms 42-43 and notes the metaphoric usage of
        God and water this psalm and the fourth gospel.

        Psalm 42:1-2b
        As a deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God.
        My soul thirsts for God, for the "living" God,...

        See also Michael Willett Newheart, Word and Soul, page 33 and Cullen I K
        Story, The Fourth Gospel, page 178 on intertextual relationship between
        Psalms 42 and Fourth Gospel.

        In addition, some other OT references for 'living water' include: Jeremiah
        2:3 and 17:13b (cf. Is. 55:1).

        My time is limited but I found your email interesting and wanted to take
        just a minute to respond. My paper goes into more detail and addresses the
        motif of 'living water' in Psalms 42 and the thread throughout the Bible
        including the fourth Gospel in particular.

        Just something to think about.

        Lorna Wilson

        >From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
        >Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        >To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water to wine
        >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:37:41 -0700
        >
        >Bob Schacht pointed to the uniqueness of living water in John.
        >
        >Is this a purity issue, living rather than well water?
        >
        >I found an old commentary (McGarvey and Pendleton 1914): '"Living water"
        >would mean literally "running" or "spring water," as contrasted with still
        >or cistern water (Ge 26:19 Le 14:5)... continual, untold refreshing (Re
        >7:17). The reviving and regenerating effects of the Holy Spirit are
        >likewise
        >called living water (Joh 7:37-39).' Very traditional - already digested for
        >us!
        >
        >Perhaps Jesus had in mind Song 4:15: You are a garden spring, a well of
        >fresh water flowing down from Lebanon.
        >
        >Seems to me that the image of the waters flowing out of the temple (Zech
        >14:8 and Rev 22:2) might be connected also - Jesus did speak of the temple
        >of his body... the waters flowed from his side.
        >
        >What is the significance of belly? koilias in the Greek - Jonah's whale's
        >belly? A womb? (John 3:4) - it seems very gutsy language <g>!
        >
        >Bob
        >
        >mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        >+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
        >
        >Catch the foxes for us,
        > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        >for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        >http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        >
        >
        >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        Lorna


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      • Thomas W Butler
        Dear Jeff, Mark, Bob, Bob, Jim, Eric, Frank and J-Lit Listers, I have made a study of Johannine signs, particularly as they relate to Mosaic oracles. My work
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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          Dear Jeff, Mark, Bob, Bob, Jim, Eric, Frank and J-Lit Listers,

          I have made a study of Johannine signs, particularly as
          they relate to Mosaic oracles. My work also includes
          a consideration of the temporal markers in the Fourth
          Gospel. Some of my work may be of interest to you.

          The word "hour (ora)" appears 24 times, and is scattered
          throughout the gospel. I am writing a devotional guide to
          the gospel called A Day with Jesus in which I have used
          the word "hour" as an end marker within the text. Each
          portion of text that ends when the word "hour" is used,
          contains numerous signs that relate to Mosaic oracles.

          I believe that the gospel was intended to be used as a text
          book for the training of disciples in the discipline of
          theological reflection, using the method commonly used
          in rabbinic schools of that time: expounding upon the
          meaning of a text, by using the language of sacred scripture,
          especially the Torah.

          The gospel is both an example of the product of such a
          method and a means of prompting the reader to engage
          in that method, first by discerning the signs that are being
          used that way (in each "hour") and then expounding upon
          the possible meanings of those signs.

          With regard to John 2: 1-11 (or 12), the first sign is the
          transformation of waters of purification into wine.

          This establishes a pattern in which the oracles used in the
          Mosaic texts with regard to the temple, the priesthood and
          the rituals of sacrifice are used within the context of the
          Jesus narrative in a way that suggests a new tradition is
          being established out of the building blocks of the old one.
          In this case, the stone jars used to contain the waters of
          purification are used to supply the jars which are used to
          poor the wine for the wedding feast.

          I agree with James Rudolf that the reader is expected to
          see this as a sacramental wine, even though the ritual of
          the Eucharist is not explicitly presented as a part of the
          narrative. (One could say that the entire gospel functions
          as a haggada for the Passover of the Followers of Jesus).
          In other words, the rhetorical transformation that takes
          place is the replacement of water for purification with
          (sacramental) wine for purification. The new tradition
          comes forth from the old tradition, but takes on a new
          form.

          In light of this approach, here are my responses to Jeff's
          interesting set of questions:

          > Jeff Staley writes:
          >
          > The "signs" in John are great places to explore, rhetorically.
          > I wrote briefly about the rhetorical significance of this sign
          > in my dissertation (published in 1988 by Scholars Press)
          > entitled "The Print's First Kiss."
          >
          > A number of things in this miracle story interest me from a
          > rheotrical standpoint:

          > 1) Exactly when does the miracle occur?

          The sign is delivered as Jesus issues two commands.
          1. Fill the jars with water.
          2. Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.

          By filling the stone jars with water, especially as the reader is
          told that the jars are filled to the brim, the reader is expected
          to see that what is being transformed is the full tradition.

          By drawing water out of these jars, the reader is expected to
          see that what Jesus will offer comes out of the tradition. By
          directing that it be taken to the wine steward (the ruler of the
          feast), the quality of what is being offered is being submitted
          for examination and evaluation.

          The reader is allowed to see that the judge of this new tradition
          will recognize its quality without knowing from whence it has
          come or by whom. However, those who have obeyed the
          commands of Jesus DO know from whence it comes and by
          whom.

          The source of the language / symbols used as "signs" in the
          Fourth Gospel is the Pentateuch. (More specifically, the
          Septuagint version of the Pentateuch). The Fourth Gospel
          is a record of the theological transfer from the Mosaic
          tradition to the Jesus tradition of sacred language, images,
          names and symbols.

          > 2) When do we as readers know that a miracle has occurred?

          The readers know that a miracle has occurred when the narrator
          informs them that the water has become wine (vs. 9). That this
          transfer (transformation) is an improvement is affirmed in the
          response provided by the steward (vs. 10).

          > 3) Who, among the characters in the story, know/s that a
          > miracle has occurred?

          We are only told that the steward knew, and that the steward
          shared this knowledge with the bridegroom. This leads to a
          pair of questions: Who is the wine steward? Who is the bride-
          groom? In the Johannine community as now these questions
          no doubt prompted some wonderful discussions, not only
          because the possible answers are rich and varied, but because
          extensions of the questions themselves can be rich and varied.
          (Who is the judge of the tradition? Who is the bride?)

          > 4) At what point do we as readers suspect that something
          > more than purification is at issue here?

          When the mother of Jesus tells Jesus "They have no wine,"
          and Jesus replies, "Woman, what concern is that to you and
          to me? My hour is not yet come." Clearly there is a dis-
          agreement between Jesus and his mother as to the significance
          of the moment that is about to be described.

          I think it is significant that Jesus addresses his mother as
          "Woman." (Note that he does this again when hanging on the
          cross.) I have drawn a connection between these two
          passages and Genesis 3: 15, which would suggest that Mary
          KNOWS that Jesus is the offspring of Woman, who will
          strike the head of the serpent, while the serpent will strike
          against his heal. She is apparently ready to get on with the
          plot, while Jesus knows that some time will pass before the
          ancient divine prophesy is fulfilled. Still, at this moment in
          time, the fulfillment of that prophesy begins.

          > 5) What is the significance of these?

          This story serves to announce the beginning of the mission of
          Jesus, which is the transformation of a system of worship that
          has become dysfunctional into one that can maintain a renewed
          and living covenant with God.

          Yours in Christ's service,
          Tom Butler

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob MacDonald
          Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread. Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward. I think we have drawn some out and I think I
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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            Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread.

            "Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward."

            I think we have drawn some out and I think I have tasted here some very good
            wine. Frank has pointed out before some of the literary affinity that Philo
            has with John. The depth of the flavour of the Tanach (Psalm 42, Song, and
            Moses)

            This being a literature dialogue - I have a trouble with scholarship and the
            use of imagery. There seems to be a severe tension here. Without some care,
            we might extend an image too far. With too much care, we might miss the
            point entirely.

            How does one know how far to stretch a metaphor?

            Bob

            mailto::BobMacDonald@...
            + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          • Bob Schacht
            ... Only as far as the author intended! :-) Bob Schacht
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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              At 08:19 PM 6/29/2002 -0700, Bob MacDonald wrote:
              >Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread.
              >
              >"Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward."
              >
              >I think we have drawn some out and I think I have tasted here some very good
              >wine. Frank has pointed out before some of the literary affinity that Philo
              >has with John. The depth of the flavour of the Tanach (Psalm 42, Song, and
              >Moses)
              >
              >This being a literature dialogue - I have a trouble with scholarship and the
              >use of imagery. There seems to be a severe tension here. Without some care,
              >we might extend an image too far. With too much care, we might miss the
              >point entirely.
              >
              >How does one know how far to stretch a metaphor?

              Only as far as the author intended! :-)
              Bob Schacht
            • efholer
              James and others, I m partially through Jeff s dissertation, very stimulating. Perhaps now would be the time to see how many on the list are in the Seattle
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
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                James and others,

                I'm partially through Jeff's dissertation, very stimulating. Perhaps now
                would be the time to see how many on the list are in the Seattle area and
                would be interested in meeting for coffee (or whatever your cup of tea might
                be) and conversation. Anyone who is interested please email me with
                suggestions for a time and place.

                And yes, I am familiar with Culpepper's work. P. Duke and M. Stibbe have
                also been helpful to me for the literary approach.

                > As far as John 2:1-11, from a literary perspective, have you considered
                > what the miracle "does?" Why is this miracle here? What purpose does
                > it serve? No one is healed. The only people who benefit from this
                > miracle do so unwittingly. From all appearances, no "sign" is done to
                > point to Jesus as God in the flesh, or to show His power in some
                > extraordinary way.

                Your point on the ignorant beneficiaries is something I have been thinking
                about. All of the sign-miracles benefit someone, whether a healing or a
                feeding, etc., but at the wedding in Cana the met need seems somewhat
                superficial in comparison. In considering the honor/shame aspect of the
                culture, however, perhaps the sign is just as compassionate as healing and
                feeding. I'm curious how this aspect, that of always meeting a need, works
                for the author to develop Jesus, the God-man - perhaps to show additional
                motive characterization beyond his coming to do the Father's will.

                Also, taking the healing of the blind man as an example - Jesus meets his
                need both physically and spiritually, the healing directly corresponding to
                the need(s) of the man. However, I'm missing the same connection in 2:1-11.
                The need is more wine, and the sign itself seems to point to
                replacement/transformation of purification rites. I'm curious about the
                correspondence between the physical obvious need and the deeper spiritual
                need...

                Are any of you familiar with Koester's work, 'Symbolism in the Fourth
                Gospel'? I think he has a great introduction on the role of the signs in the
                FG, but I was dissapointed in the commentary on the wedding pericope. I'll
                review my notes on the book and see if there something beneficial for our
                discussion.

                Your other comments were helpful. I'm curious about the connection/inclusio
                formed by the use of 'mother of Jesus' and 'wine' in both the wedding
                pericope and the crucifixion scene. Has anyone looked thoroughly at that?

                Cut and pasted from Jeff Staley:

                What I am saying, is that in my reading, this is perhaps the most
                rhetorically open
                miracle in the FG--perhaps in all of the NT--perhaps in the ancient world.
                It is purposefully difficult to pin down.

                Eric responds:

                No good author gives the prize away so soon =) The difficulty for me is
                having read the gospel so many times that I lose the feeling of suspense
                during a first reading. I agree, the diffululty of this scene is purposeful,
                incites/invites the reader to reread and move forward - indeed, I don't know
                anyone who is not driven to reread the whole once he or she has come to the
                end.

                Lastly, I was intrigued by Frank's use of Philo for understanding aspects of
                the FG. Given the contemporaneity of the two authors and obvious parallels
                between their work (some stronger than others), how does one make the jump
                from observing similarity in the texts to comparison for the sake of better
                understanding them both? This is more a question concerning hermeneutics
                than one concerning the FG, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this
                issue. Also, I'm not familiar with Philo's works - if there's anyone on the
                list who disagrees with Frank's use of Philo, I'd like to hear from them.

                To all - thanks for the great thoughts - I didn't expect my introduction to
                start a dialogue - so if my posts are infrequent, it's just that I'm more
                comfortable listening than 'speaking' - I'm still a child in the world of
                Johannine scholarship.

                Eric Fholer
                Northwest Theological Seminary
                Lynnwood Wa
              • Jack C Pilato
                Just a thought and perhaps in left field. But here goes. Christ came to fulfill the law to perfection. When his mother asked him to do something to help, he
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 30, 2002
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                  Just a thought and perhaps in left field. But here goes.

                  Christ came to fulfill the law to perfection. When his mother asked him
                  to do something to help, he did what was required by the law to honor
                  his mother. The further meaning then is that God hears all our requests
                  no matter how mundane or trivial in the eyes of others. If the request
                  is important to us it is important to Him and He will honor them if they
                  are within his permissive will.

                  Jack
                • Bob MacDonald
                  It seems to me that the rhetorical analysis is a synonym for metaphor stretching - and Bob Schacht has pointed to the author as authority for the limits on
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 30, 2002
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                    It seems to me that the rhetorical analysis is a synonym for metaphor
                    stretching - and Bob Schacht has pointed to the author as authority for the
                    limits on stretching. (Lots of scope for stretching with John).

                    Yesterday I was at a wedding and a little boy stretched his balloon too far
                    with predictable results - a loud bang and tears of shock. But if he had
                    not stretched it at all, authority of the material aside, he would not have
                    learned as much about balloons.

                    This is the second wedding in two days, the earlier one very traditional
                    Cranmer prayer book service (with reference to Cana of course and Ephesians
                    5 and so on), the second otherwise. The second conflicted with a funeral -
                    my wife and I attended both, singing at one and eating at the other. How far
                    can I stretch the wedding metaphor in John? What was really going on in
                    Cana? Did the 16th century interpretation of the lawfulness of marriage have
                    anything to do with it? Or was that a 16th century binding only. Each of
                    these words requires a book.

                    The issue of metaphor and usage is very dear to me and my understanding of
                    the Bible. Many have stretched the metaphors in ways that clearly need
                    correction; yet many have not stretched sufficiently and end up with an
                    impoverished tradition. We are bound (religio) by the stretching we
                    achieve. And as Jesus says - what we bind here is bound in heaven; what we
                    loose here is loosed in heaven.

                    Now to answer the rhetorical questions as Tom Butler did but with variation.

                    1) Exactly when does the miracle occur?

                    When we begin to hear the story not just as consecrating a wedding but as
                    foreshadowing Jesus' death. It is good that the process of marrying and
                    being given in marriage can continue (though some would forbid it) - but the
                    real marriage is otherwise - all whom the Father gives me shall come to me.
                    (6:37) This is our 'bridegroom of blood' (Exodus 4).

                    2) When do we as readers know that a miracle has occurred?

                    When the disciples believe. - These are the same disciples as the synoptic
                    gospels! They have hard hearts and get it all wrong. So it is with us.
                    John is not writing about those same quarrelsome disciples.

                    3) Who, among the characters in the story, know/s that a miracle has
                    occurred?

                    The Father (the steward) and the Son (the bridegroom) know when we (the
                    bride) are ready. The bride (Mary, us, the reader) know also. But the mass
                    of the tradition does not.

                    4) At what point do we as readers suspect that something more than
                    purification is at issue here?

                    When we are born. The morality of our traditions is not adequate to the
                    variety of our conditions.

                    5) What is the significance of these?

                    The potential for life is here in abundance. The work of obedience to Jesus'
                    commands still needs to be done. The wine of God's wrath needs to be drunk.
                    The wine is the blood of the Eucharist by which our death is included in his
                    death, so that his life might be known in our life.

                    I think all these points could be supported by John's gospel - but whether
                    the balloon will break - ... maybe I have only just begun to blow it up -
                    tough material at first - hurts the cheeks.

                    abundant blessings of stretched metaphor to you all

                    Bob

                    mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                    + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

                    Catch the foxes for us,
                    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                    for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                    http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                  • Elizabeth Danna
                    The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly. Briefly, what is the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 18 11:05 AM
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                      The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked
                      some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly.

                      Briefly, what is the connection between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39? For
                      reasons which will become clear I had better offer a translation of the
                      latter passage: "If anyone is thirsty let them come to me, and let the
                      one who believes in me drink. As the Scripture says, 'Out of his
                      insides will flow rivers of living water.' He said this about the
                      Spirit, which those who believed in him would receive; for the Spirit
                      had not yet been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

                      There are several links between these two passages. The most
                      obvious is the water symbolism in each. In both passages Jesus is the
                      source of drink. At 2:7 the servants, at Jesus' instruction, fill the
                      water jars to the brim, which suggests abundance. And there is
                      something about the idea of "rivers of water flowing out" which also
                      suggests an abundance of what is supplied. Both passages also mention
                      believers in Jesus, and Jesus' glory (having read 2:21f, the implied
                      reader is able to guess that the glorification of Jesus mentioned at
                      7:39 refers to his death). I suggest that AUTOU at 7:38 refers to
                      Jesus, not the believer. Do these connections suggest that my
                      interpretation of 7:38 is correct?

                      Elizabeth Danna
                    • kymhsm
                      Dear Elizabeth, It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the He who believes in me , not
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 18 6:00 PM
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                        Dear Elizabeth,

                        It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                        heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who believes
                        in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                        I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                        to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.

                        This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                        source of the living water/Spirit.

                        Kym Smith
                        Adelide
                        South Australia
                        khs@...
                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        ... whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the He who believes in me , not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, ...the water I shall
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 18 7:43 PM
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                          Kym Smith responded to Elizabeth:

                          >>It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from
                          whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is
                          the 'He who believes in me', not Jesus. If you throw
                          into the equation 4:14, '...the water I shall give him
                          will become in him a spring of water welling up to
                          eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.<<

                          I've often wondered if Jn. 7:38 is intentionally
                          ambiguous and thereby intended to refer to both Jesus
                          and the believer.

                          Has anyone suggested this or a category of ambiguity
                          in John? -- call it Johannine ambiguity, by analogy to
                          Johannine irony.

                          Jeffery Hodges

                          =====
                          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                          447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                          Yangsandong 411
                          South Korea

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
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                        • Bob Schacht
                          ... Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the He who... or Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*? Bob Robert M. Schacht
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 18 7:54 PM
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                            At 01:00 AM 8/19/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                            >Dear Elizabeth,
                            >
                            >It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                            >heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who believes
                            >in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                            >I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                            >to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.
                            >
                            >This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                            >source of the living water/Spirit.

                            Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the "He who..." or
                            Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?
                            Bob


                            Robert M. Schacht
                            Flagstaff, AZ
                            If I were a Rich Man...I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men,
                            several hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of all.
                            Fiddler on the Roof

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kymhsm
                            Dear Bob, My post was,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 19 12:36 AM
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                              Dear Bob,

                              <<< Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the
                              "He who..." or Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?>>>

                              My post was, admittedly, only from looking at the English text. I
                              am no Greek expert. For me it is out with the exicons etc. But
                              from the brief look I have had I think the Greek is quite
                              unambiguous. Someone else may correct me but that is my
                              reading of it. Though the source must and can only be Christ, it
                              is the believer out of whom the living waters flow.

                              Sincerely,

                              Kym Smith
                              Adelaide
                              South Australia
                              khs@...



                              --- In johannine_literature@y..., Bob Schacht <r_schacht@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > At 01:00 AM 8/19/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                              > >Dear Elizabeth,
                              > >
                              > >It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                              > >heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who
                              believes
                              > >in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the
                              water
                              > >I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling
                              up
                              > >to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.
                              > >
                              > >This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                              > >source of the living water/Spirit.
                              >
                              > Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the "He
                              who..." or
                              > Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?
                              > Bob
                              >
                              >
                              > Robert M. Schacht
                              > Flagstaff, AZ
                              > If I were a Rich Man...I'd discuss the holy books with the
                              learned men,
                              > several hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of
                              all.
                              > Fiddler on the Roof
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mary Coloe
                              I read 7:37 with 7:39 which speaks about a later time when the Spirit will be given, compared with the now time. In this context in the present time Jesus is
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 20 7:49 AM
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                                I read 7:37 with 7:39 which speaks about a later time when the Spirit will
                                be given, compared with the now time.
                                In this context in the present time Jesus is the source of living water as
                                he promised the Samaritan woman.
                                But there will be a time in the future when the historical Jesus will no
                                longer be present and in that future time he promises that
                                believers, because of the gift of the SPirit, will become sources of living
                                water. Behind both statementsI have argued lies the image of the Temple.
                                Jesus as the new Temple (2:21) is able to provide waters (Ez 49), but as he
                                promises when this temple of his body is destroyed he will raise a Temple
                                in its plcae (2:19).
                                This Temple is the Temple of the believing community, transformed through
                                the 'Hour' into the new house(hold) of God.

                                If you would like to see more detailed arguments and references to the
                                above lines of thought may I suggest my book, God Dwells with us - Temple
                                Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel - Loturgical Press, 2001.
                                In emails its just not possible to give the details of the exegesis.
                                Best wishes.

                                Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
                                Australian Catholic University Limited
                                (ABN 15050 192660)

                                Locked Bag 4115
                                Fitzroy. VIC 3065 AUSTRALIA

                                ph (61 + 3) 99533137 Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
                                M.Coloe@...
                              • Elizabeth Danna
                                ... But even in this verse it is said, twice, that it is Jesus who gives the water. Elizabeth Danna
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 20 8:49 AM
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                                  kymhsm wrote:

                                  > If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                                  > I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                                  > to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.

                                  But even in this verse it is said, twice, that it is Jesus who gives the
                                  water.

                                  Elizabeth Danna
                                • fmmccoy
                                  ... From: Elizabeth Danna To: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 20 9:42 AM
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Elizabeth Danna" <ejdanna@...>
                                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:05 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] water to wine


                                    > The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked
                                    > some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly.
                                    >
                                    > Briefly, what is the connection between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39? For
                                    > reasons which will become clear I had better offer a translation of the
                                    > latter passage: "If anyone is thirsty let them come to me, and let the
                                    > one who believes in me drink. As the Scripture says, 'Out of his
                                    > insides will flow rivers of living water.' He said this about the
                                    > Spirit, which those who believed in him would receive; for the Spirit
                                    > had not yet been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
                                    >
                                    > There are several links between these two passages. The most
                                    > obvious is the water symbolism in each. In both passages Jesus is the
                                    > source of drink. At 2:7 the servants, at Jesus' instruction, fill the
                                    > water jars to the brim, which suggests abundance. And there is
                                    > something about the idea of "rivers of water flowing out" which also
                                    > suggests an abundance of what is supplied. Both passages also mention
                                    > believers in Jesus, and Jesus' glory (having read 2:21f, the implied
                                    > reader is able to guess that the glorification of Jesus mentioned at
                                    > 7:39 refers to his death). I suggest that AUTOU at 7:38 refers to
                                    > Jesus, not the believer. Do these connections suggest that my
                                    > interpretation of 7:38 is correct?
                                    >

                                    Dear Elizabeth Danna:

                                    That there are connections between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39 is undeniable.

                                    2:1-11, though, ISTM, gives us a mixed message as respects the question of
                                    whether the AUTOU of 7:38 refers to Jesus or to a believer.

                                    In 2:1-11, it is the servants who pour the water into the stone water jars
                                    and who take this water become wine to the master of the feast.

                                    To the extent that 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39 are connected, this suggests that the
                                    AUTOU refers to a believer: for if a number of people are involved in the
                                    giving of the water in 2:1-11, then this should be the case in 7:37c-39--and
                                    there are many who are believers, but only one Jesus.

                                    On the other hand, in 2:1-11, the bridegroom is praised for saving the good
                                    wine till the end--which suggests that he alone is the source for the water
                                    become wine.

                                    To the extent that 7:37c-39 are connected, this suggests that the AUTOU
                                    refers to a single individual, i.e., Jesus.

                                    So, ISTM, on one level of 2:1-11, there are a number of people responsible
                                    for the giving of the water become wine while, on another level of 2:1-11,
                                    only the bridegroom is responsible for the giving of the water become wine.
                                    The first level of meaning lends support to the idea that the AUTOU of 7:38
                                    is a believer, while the second level of meaning lends support to the idea
                                    that the AUTOU of 7:38 is Jesus.

                                    If you could establish that (1) the second level of meaning to 2:1-11 is the
                                    only true level of meaning, so that, in it, it is *only* the bridegroom who
                                    is truly responsible for the water become wine and that (2) on this second
                                    level of meaning the bridegroom is the Bridegroom of 3:29 (i.e., Jesus) and
                                    that (3) on this second level of meaning the water become wine is the
                                    Spirit, then, ISTM, you could use the connections betwen 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39
                                    as supporting evidence for your suggestion that the AUTOU of 7:38 is Jesus.

                                    Just a thought--hopefully a helpful one.

                                    Frank McCoy
                                    1809 N. English Apt. 17
                                    Maplewood, MN 55109
                                  • kymhsm
                                    Dear Elizabeth, You wrote: I am sorry if I am missing
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 20 5:08 PM
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                                      Dear Elizabeth,

                                      You wrote:

                                      <<<But even in this verse (i.e. Jn 4:14) it is said, twice, that it is
                                      Jesus who gives the water.>>>

                                      I am sorry if I am missing something, but I am not sure what the
                                      need for your comment is. I have responded twice, both posts
                                      are very short, and in both posts I have insisted that God/the
                                      Father/Jesus is/are the source of the living water.

                                      A number of OT references such as Jer 2:13; 17:13; Ezek 47
                                      also make it clear that God is the source of the living water.

                                      The issue is that we are not given the Spirit to keep to ourselves.
                                      Jesus' promise of the Spirit / living water in the passages under
                                      discussion indicates that the life he gives us is to be lived out.
                                      Through us that life, the life of the Spirit, is to flow out into the
                                      world in which we live. We are never the source of that life / Spirit,
                                      but we are called to be healthy springs issuing forth that which
                                      God, the 'fountain of living waters' (Jer 2:13), has given to us.

                                      Sincerely,

                                      Kym Smith
                                      Adelaide
                                      South Australia
                                      khs@...
                                    • Elizabeth Danna
                                      ... You have, and I should have made a note of that in my own post - my apologies. My point is that while you stress one aspect of 4:14, I stress another.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 21 6:34 AM
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                                        kymhsm wrote:

                                        > Dear Elizabeth,
                                        >
                                        > You wrote:
                                        >
                                        > <<<But even in this verse (i.e. Jn 4:14) it is said, twice, that it is
                                        > Jesus who gives the water.>>>
                                        >
                                        > I am sorry if I am missing something, but I am not sure what the
                                        > need for your comment is. I have responded twice, both posts
                                        > are very short, and in both posts I have insisted that God/the
                                        > Father/Jesus is/are the source of the living water.

                                        You have, and I should have made a note of that in my own post - my
                                        apologies. My point is that while you stress one aspect of 4:14, I stress
                                        another.

                                        Elizabeth Danna
                                      • Elizabeth Danna
                                        fmmccoy wrote: [interesting post snipped for space reasons] ... Helpful indeed - thank you, Frank. Elizabeth Danna
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 21 6:39 AM
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                                          fmmccoy wrote:
                                          [interesting post snipped for space reasons]

                                          > Just a thought--hopefully a helpful one.

                                          Helpful indeed - thank you, Frank.

                                          Elizabeth Danna
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