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Re: [John_Lit] water to wine

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  • James C Rudolph
    Eric, Jeff s dissertation The Print s First Kiss is definitely worth your time if you plan to do something with Rhetorical Criticism. It is a good work on
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 26, 2002
      Eric,

      Jeff's dissertation "The Print's First Kiss" is definitely worth your
      time if you plan to do something with Rhetorical Criticism. It is a good
      work on Rhetoric in John's Gospel.

      You also said you have an interest in Literary Criticism, I believe. I
      assume you have looked at Alan Culpepper's book "The Anatomy of the
      Fourth Gospel," but if you have not, it would also be helpful.

      As far as John 2:1-11, from a literary perspective, have you considered
      what the miracle "does?" Why is this miracle here? What purpose does
      it serve? No one is healed. The only people who benefit from this
      miracle do so unwittingly. From all appearances, no "sign" is done to
      point to Jesus as God in the flesh, or to show His power in some
      extraordinary way.

      However, if you look more closely at the setting of the miracle, I think
      you can get some great insight as to the perspective of the author of
      John's gospel.

      First, the miracle is done at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. It is
      His first miracle. Therefore, it somewhat "sets the stage" for His
      ministry, etc.

      Second, it is done at a wedding. A wedding was a place to encounter the
      presence of God. And the people (again unwittingly) encounter the
      presence of God.

      Third, look at what is used to produce the miracle. There are six stone
      water pots. The water pots hold water for "ritual purification" before
      and during the wedding celebration. The water pots cannot truly CLEANSE
      the people. It is ritual. However, Jesus changes the contents of the
      pots to wine. Most likely the wine has two meanings. If you remember
      the various OT prophecies about the "Day of the Lord," one of the symbols
      of the day of the Lord was an abundance of wine, symbolizing great or
      abundant joy. Six water pots, holding 20-30 gallons each would be an
      over-abundance of wine, thus an over-abundance of joy. The joy is not
      resulting from the wedding, but from the coming of Messiah, whose first
      sign this is. HOWEVER, I said there were probably two meanings for the
      wine. Remember, John does not narrate a Last Supper. There are no words
      of institution ("This is my body . . . " "This is my blood . . . ") You
      have communion dialogue in the last part of John 6, after the feeding of
      the 5,000. However, that only covers the bread. What about the wine
      used in the Communion meal? More than likely, its presence is made known
      here. The water for ritual purification becomes wine, which is the
      symbol of the true purification that Jesus brings in his death, burial &
      resurrection. That wine symbolizes all of this in the
      communion/Eucharist meal, thus herein lies your symbol in the water to
      wine miracle. The wine symbolizes the ritual true spiritual cleansing.
      ALSO, if you want to tie them together, when you truly understand the
      true nature of Jesus' ministry, then there truly is an abundance of JOY.
      This comes, not because God has come and established the physical Kingdom
      of God on earth, but because the Kingdom of God has been established in
      the hearts of men by God's Messiah, who has made his presence known in
      this first miracle.

      And not to take this sign out of its context, look at what happens next
      in John's gospel. What does Jesus do next? He publicly critiques the
      whole Jewish religious system by the cleansing of the Temple, showing
      (very early, I might add) that the Jewish religious system is corrupt and
      has missed the point, and that He has come to show them the true way to
      the Father. As Jesus has anounced his coming with the first miracle, He
      then begins his ministry by cleansing the temple, and doing what Messiah
      does, establishing the Kingdom of God in the hearts of the men who will
      accept Him, as opposed to those who reject Him.

      These are just a few thoughts for you Eric. I hope they are helpful. I
      would enjoy any feedback/discussion about these thoughts (both from Eric,
      or others).


      Grace and Peace,

      Jim


      ----------------------------------------


      Eric writes:

      Currently I am working on an exegetical paper of John 2:1-11

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    • efholer
      Thanks for the welcome, Jeff. I am actually right on the border of the Bothell/Kirkland/Woodinville city lines, off of 405 on Juanita-Woodinville Way. I have
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 26, 2002
        Thanks for the welcome, Jeff. I am actually right on the border of the
        Bothell/Kirkland/Woodinville city lines, off of 405 on Juanita-Woodinville
        Way. I have your dissertation through the SBL series. I just started it
        tonight - perhaps once I've read it we can meet for coffee and conversation.

        Concerning your interests, namely:

        > A number of things in this miracle story interest me from a rheotrical
        > standpoint: 1)exactly when does the miracle occur? 2) When do we as
        readers
        > know that a miracle has occurred? 3) Who, among the characters in the
        story,
        > know/s that a miracle has occurred? 4) At what point do we as readers
        > suspect that something more than purification is at issue here? 5) What is
        > the significance of these?

        good questions. My own thoughts more closely parallel yours on point 4, and
        to partly answer it, how the sign functions to reveal the glory of Christ
        and thereby support John 20:30-31. When I'm reading through the initial few
        chapters, and I see the character development of the disciples, then come to
        the wedding scene at Cana, and then read the statement "Jesus...manifested
        his glory and the disciples believed in him," I tend to take a step back,
        feeling that I've missed something that the disciples haven't. My initial
        thoughts are to investigate the rhetorical strategy behind the disciples,
        how the reader is perhaps intended to identify with the disciples who behold
        the glory and believe. I think this identification is partly effected by the
        author making the disciples non-active participants in this pericope,
        spectators of the drama as we are. These thoughts are overly simplistic, but
        as I said, I have much work to do here =) I look forward to reading your
        thoughts on this topic in the dissertation.

        Eric Fholer
        Northwest Theological Seminary
        Lynnwood, Wa
      • Staley, Jeffrey
        perhaps once I ve read it we can meet for coffee and conversation. Jeff Staley writes: That would be great. And since this is a listserve, I suppose we ought
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 27, 2002
          perhaps once I've read it we can meet for coffee and conversation.

          Jeff Staley writes:
          That would be great. And since this is a listserve, I suppose we ought to
          invite anyone else who wants to join us!

          > A number of things in this miracle story interest me from a rhetorical
          > standpoint: 1)exactly when does the miracle occur? 2) When do we as
          readers
          > know that a miracle has occurred? 3) Who, among the characters in the
          story,
          > know/s that a miracle has occurred? 4) At what point do we as readers
          > suspect that something more than purification is at issue here? 5) What is
          > the significance of these?

          read the statement "Jesus...manifested his glory and the disciples believed
          in him," I tend to take a step back, feeling that I've missed something that
          the disciples haven't.


          Jeff Staley writes:

          I think you are right. For me, I am perfectly happy staying with this
          "feeling that I have missed something." That is--I believe this is part of
          the rhetorical stategy at work in the narrator's nebulous Jesus...manifested
          his glory ." Now, whether we will "believe what the disciples are believing"
          at this point is probably not possible to say, but that we are made to feel
          somehow left out, and yet wanting to be like the disciples, can be argued
          fairly easily. Minimally we are led to go back and read the sign again--or
          read further, to see if we are given clues. Whether "the" reader is
          "supposed" to make all the "believing" connections that Jim does in his
          response to you--I personally think not. But that we are rhetorically
          invited--challenged to make believing connections, I would say yes. What I
          am saying, is that in my reading, this is perhaps the most rhetorically open
          miracle in the FG--perhaps in all of the NT--perhaps in the ancient world.
          It is purposefully difficult to pin down.


          Eric writes:

          My initial thoughts are to investigate the rhetorical strategy behind the
          disciples, how the reader is perhaps intended to identify with the disciples
          who behold the glory and believe. I think this identification is partly
          effected by the author making the disciples non-active participants in this
          pericope, spectators of the drama as we are.

          Good idea, Eric.

          Jeff
        • Bob MacDonald
          This is a bit of an unconnected question - what is the symbolism of water in John s writing? Is it deliberately consistent or not? The writer of Ephesians
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 27, 2002
            This is a bit of an unconnected question - what is the symbolism of water in
            John's writing? Is it deliberately consistent or not? The writer of
            Ephesians specifically identifies it with the word - I wonder whence this
            identification? Is that the identification meant in 1 John 5? For
            convenience I have quickly summarized the usage in G John and 1 John.

            John 2:9 Water into wine: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water
            that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew
            the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

            John 3:5 Born of water: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
            Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
            kingdom of God.

            John 3:23 Baptised in water: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to
            Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

            John 4:10 Water of life: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest
            the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou
            wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

            John 4:46 water and wine again: So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee,
            where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son
            was sick at Capernaum.

            John 5:3 water and troubled movement: In these lay a great multitude of
            impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the
            water.

            John 7:38 living waters from the belly: He that believeth on me, as the
            scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

            John 13:5 footwashing: After that he poureth water into a bason, and began
            to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he
            was girded.

            John 19:34 blood and water: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his
            side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

            1 John 5:6 blood and water: This is he that came by water and blood, [even]
            Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the
            Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

            1 John 5:8 consistency of the witness: And there are three that bear witness
            in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in
            one.

            Thanks

            Bob


            mailto::BobMacDonald@...
            + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          • Bob Schacht
            ... This two-word phrase, Living water, zao hudor (John 4:10, 11; 7:38) may be a special case that may have its own special symbolism. It occurs only in John.
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 27, 2002
              At 05:53 PM 6/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:
              >This is a bit of an unconnected question - what is the symbolism of water in
              >John's writing? Is it deliberately consistent or not? The writer of
              >Ephesians specifically identifies it with the word - I wonder whence this
              >identification? Is that the identification meant in 1 John 5? For
              >convenience I have quickly summarized the usage in G John and 1 John.
              >
              >John 2:9 Water into wine: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water
              >that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew
              >the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
              >
              >John 3:5 Born of water: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
              >Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
              >kingdom of God.
              >
              >John 3:23 Baptised in water: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to
              >Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
              >
              >John 4:10 Water of life: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest
              >the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou
              >wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

              This two-word phrase, Living water, zao hudor (John 4:10, 11; 7:38) may be
              a special case that may have its own special symbolism. It occurs only in
              John. I think I remember that from somewhere in the commentaries. Think of
              fresh spring water, cool, clear, in contrast with brackish, stagnant water
              as a metaphor for the life of the spirit.
              Bob Schacht


              >John 4:46 water and wine again: So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee,
              >where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son
              >was sick at Capernaum.
              >
              >John 5:3 water and troubled movement: In these lay a great multitude of
              >impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the
              >water.
              >
              >John 7:38 living waters from the belly: He that believeth on me, as the
              >scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
              >
              >John 13:5 footwashing: After that he poureth water into a bason, and began
              >to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he
              >was girded.
              >
              >John 19:34 blood and water: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his
              >side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
              >
              >1 John 5:6 blood and water: This is he that came by water and blood, [even]
              >Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the
              >Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
              >
              >1 John 5:8 consistency of the witness: And there are three that bear witness
              >in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in
              >one.
              >
              >Thanks
              >
              >Bob
              >
              >
              >mailto::BobMacDonald@...
              >+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
              >
              >Catch the foxes for us,
              > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              >for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
              >http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
              >
              >
              >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            • Bob MacDonald
              Bob Schacht pointed to the uniqueness of living water in John. Is this a purity issue, living rather than well water? I found an old commentary (McGarvey and
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 27, 2002
                Bob Schacht pointed to the uniqueness of living water in John.

                Is this a purity issue, living rather than well water?

                I found an old commentary (McGarvey and Pendleton 1914): '"Living water"
                would mean literally "running" or "spring water," as contrasted with still
                or cistern water (Ge 26:19 Le 14:5)... continual, untold refreshing (Re
                7:17). The reviving and regenerating effects of the Holy Spirit are likewise
                called living water (Joh 7:37-39).' Very traditional - already digested for
                us!

                Perhaps Jesus had in mind Song 4:15: You are a garden spring, a well of
                fresh water flowing down from Lebanon.

                Seems to me that the image of the waters flowing out of the temple (Zech
                14:8 and Rev 22:2) might be connected also - Jesus did speak of the temple
                of his body... the waters flowed from his side.

                What is the significance of belly? koilias in the Greek - Jonah's whale's
                belly? A womb? (John 3:4) - it seems very gutsy language <g>!

                Bob

                mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

                Catch the foxes for us,
                the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
              • fmmccoy
                ... From: Bob MacDonald To: Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:53 PM
                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water to wine

                  (Bob McDonald)
                  > This is a bit of an unconnected question - what is the symbolism of water
                  in
                  > John's writing? Is it deliberately consistent or not? The writer of
                  > Ephesians specifically identifies it with the word - I wonder whence this
                  > identification? Is that the identification meant in 1 John 5? For
                  > convenience I have quickly summarized the usage in G John and 1 John.

                  (Frank McCoy)
                  In the teachings of Philo, there is a spiritual water, superior to physical
                  water, he calls Wisdom. I think the same basic idea is also found in
                  Johannine thought, but with this spiritual water called the Spirit rather
                  than Wisdom.

                  (Bob)
                  > John 2:9 Water into wine: When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water
                  > that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which
                  drew
                  > the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

                  (Frank)
                  In the teachings of Philo, Wisdom is a spiritual water that fills the Word
                  (Logos). As such, when he pours her, as an outpouring of his very self,
                  into human souls, she becomes a spiritual wine that brings joy to these
                  human souls.

                  See Som ii (245 & 249), where Philo states, "It is this Word which one of
                  Moses' company compared to a river, when he said in the Psalms 'the river of
                  God is full of water (Ps. lxv. (lxiv.) 10); where surely it were senseless
                  to suppose that the words can properly refer to any of the rivers of earth.
                  No, he is representing the Divine Word as full of the stream of
                  Wisdom....And when the happy soul holds out the sacred goblet of its own
                  reason, who is that pours into it the holy cupfuls of true gladness gladness
                  but the Word, the Cup-bearer of God and Master of the feast, who is also
                  none other than the draught which he pours--his own self free from all
                  dilution, the delight, the sweetening, the exhilaration, the merriment, the
                  ambrosian drug (to take for own use the poet's terms) whose medicine gives
                  joy and gladness?"

                  So, I suggest, in the Johannine narrative of the wedding at Cana, the
                  turning of the water into wine symbolizes how what Philo calls Wisdom can be
                  transformed within a human soul from a spiritual water to a spiritual wine.

                  In line with this, in the Johannine narrative, the water is turned into wine
                  within a hudria (water-jar)--for, in the teachings of Philo, a hudria
                  can symbolize a human mind as a receiver of the spiritual water of Wisdom.

                  So, in Post (136), Philo states, "Rebecca, it says, went down to the spring
                  to fill her hudrian, and came up again. For whence is it likely that a mind
                  thirsting for sound sense should be filled save from the Wisdom of God, that
                  never-failing spring,...".

                  (Bob)
                  > John 3:5 Born of water: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
                  > Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into
                  the
                  > kingdom of God.

                  (Frank)
                  As a spiritual water that flows out of the Word, Wisdom can enable one to
                  gain eternal life.

                  So, in Fuga (97), Philo declares, "The man who is capable of running swiftly
                  it bids stay not to draw breath but pass forward to the supreme Divine Word,
                  who is the fountain of Wisdom, in order that he may draw from the stream
                  and, released from death, gain life eternal as his prize."

                  I suggest that his relates to John 3:5: with, in it, the second birth being
                  one's "birth" into eternal life and with the Spirit being the spiritual
                  water, called Wisdom by Philo, that brings about this second "birth".

                  In this case, the phrase of "of water and [of] the Spirit" can be taken two
                  ways.

                  Taken the first way, it is declaration that, to enter the Kingdom of God,
                  one must both be baptized by physical water and by the spiritual water of
                  the Spirit.

                  Taken the second way, it is understood to mean, "of the [spiritual] water
                  and [of] the Spirit". In this case, it is a double reference to the
                  Spirit--just as, in James 3:9, "the Lord and Father" is a double reference
                  to God.

                  The key point in the above discussion is that, judging by this passage, the
                  spiritual water that is called Wisdom in the teachings of Philo is called
                  the Spirit in the Johannine tradition.

                  (Bob)
                  > John 3:23 Baptised in water: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to
                  > Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were
                  baptized.

                  (Frank)
                  I think that John 3:23 relates to John 1:33, where John the Baptist states,
                  "He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the
                  Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit."
                  (RSV)

                  In 1:33, I suggest,. John acts as a predecessor for the Word (compare John
                  1:6 and 1:15), with his water baptism being a physical analog of the
                  spiritual baptism of one's soul by the spiritual water (called the Spirit in
                  the Johannine tradition) that pours forth from this Word.

                  So, in 3:23, I think, what we have is John baptizing people in physical
                  water as a fore-shadowing of the coming of the Word: who will baptize worthy
                  souls with the spiritual water called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit
                  in the Johannine tradition..

                  (Bob)
                  > John 4:10 Water of life: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest
                  > the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou
                  > wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

                  (Frank)
                  Here, I think, Jesus speaks as the Word: within whom is the spiritual water
                  called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition.
                  This is living water because through it the human soul can gain eternal
                  life. If you ask of this spiritual water from the Word, he will give your
                  soul to drink of it and your soul will, thereby, gain eternal life.

                  (Bob)
                  > John 4:46 water and wine again: So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee,
                  > where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son
                  > was sick at Capernaum.

                  (Frank)
                  See above, on 2:9, for the turning of the water into wine.

                  (Bob)
                  > John 5:3 water and troubled movement: In these lay a great multitude of
                  > impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the
                  > water.

                  (Frank)
                  I think that, we are to understand, this symbolically represents how the
                  souls of some of the spiritually crippled lay near to the spiritual water
                  (the Wisdom of Philo's teachings and the Spirit of the Johannine tradition),
                  hoping to be spiritually healed by its movement into their souls.

                  Note that, in 5:14, after healing a crippled man there, Jesus warns him not
                  to sin again lest something worse happen to him. The idea, I think, is not
                  so much that sin engenders physical crippling as that sin spiritually
                  cripples and maims one.

                  (Bob)
                  > John 7:38 living waters from the belly: He that believeth on me, as the
                  > scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

                  (Frank)
                  In the teachings of Philo, as pointed out above, Wisdom can be likened to a
                  spiritual water that can fill the spiritual hudria (i.e., mind) of a human
                  being. Once in one's mind, this spiritual water of Wisdom can then be
                  "poured out" as uttered speech into the souls of eager disciples.

                  So, in Post (146), Philo relates, "Rebecca is therefore to be commended for
                  following the ordinances of the Father and letting down from a higher
                  positon the vessel which contains Wisdom, called the hudrian on to her
                  "arm", and for holding out to the mathete (disciple) the teaching which he
                  is able to receive.

                  This uttering of Wisdom to disciples can be likened to the flowing forth of
                  streams of water. So, in Post (138), Philo relates, "All she needs is just
                  a pitcher, which is a figure of a vessel containing the ruling faculty as
                  it pours forth like water its copious streams."

                  I think that all this relates to John 7:38. In this case, the "belly"
                  symbolizes the mind and the streams of living water that flow from it are
                  the spiritual water (called Wisdom in the teachings of Philo and the Spirit
                  in the Johannine tradition) as uttered by a possessor of it into the souls
                  of disciples listening to these streams of discourse.

                  Indeed, that the rivers of living water in 7:38 are what is called the
                  Spirit in the Johannine tradition is confirmed in the very next verse (i.e.,
                  7:39), "But this spoke he of the Spirit,...".

                  (Bob)
                  > John 13:5 footwashing: After that he poureth water into a bason, and began
                  > to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith
                  he
                  > was girded.

                  (Frank)
                  This is, I think, a symbolic action, symbolizing how the spiritual water
                  (called Wisdom by Philo and called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition)
                  poured out by the Word can cleanse one's soul.

                  In this case, the feet of the disciples symbolizes their souls. Compare
                  Exodus (Book I. 19), where Philo likens one's feet to one's soul, stating,
                  "For, He says, they must have shoes 'in their feet' which is impossible and
                  cannot be done, for the feet of the wearers are different from the
                  shoes....And so, He says, let not the inanimate be a covering for that which
                  has a soul but, on the contrary, let the animate (be a cover) for the
                  inanimate in order that the better may not be held and contained by the bad
                  but the bad by the better. For the Creator has made the soul queen and
                  mistress of the body, and the body the obedient servant and slave of the
                  soul."

                  If this is the inner meaning of the action in 13:5, this explains why Jesus
                  states in 13:10, "He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his
                  feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not all of you."

                  In this case, it can be thusly paraphrased, "He who has bathed in physical
                  water does not need to wash, except for his spiritual feet, i.e., his soul,
                  for which he needs to be cleansed by the spiritual water that pours out from
                  me as the Word, but he is physically clean all over, and you disciples are
                  clean in both body and soul, except for one (i.e., Judas): who is still
                  unclean in his "feet", i.e., soul, because he plans to betray me."

                  (Bob)
                  > John 19:34 blood and water: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced
                  his
                  > side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

                  (Frank)
                  The spiritual water (which Philo called Wisdom), poured out by the Word,
                  that can purify one's soul, is also a spiritual blood. So, in Heres (182),
                  Philo states, "He (i.e., Moses) took, we read, the half of the blood and
                  poured it into mixing bowls and the half he poured upon the altar, to shew
                  us that sacred wisdom is of a twofold kind, divine (i.e., Wisdom) and human
                  (i.e., wisdom)." Then, shortly thereafter (185), he goes on to relate that
                  the Word uses the divine blood (i.e., Wisdom) to cleanse even one's senses,
                  stating, "The eyes are the 'bowls' of sight, the ears of hearing, the
                  nostrils of the sense of smell, and each of the others has its fitting
                  vessel. On these bowls the holy Word pours of the blood, desiring that our
                  irrational part should become quickened and become in some sense rational,
                  following the divine courses of the mind".

                  In 19:34, then, I think that the blood and water pouring from Jesus
                  symbolically signify that he is the Word: he from whom flows the spiritual
                  water and blood called the Spirit in the Johannine tradition. On an even
                  deeper level, as the physical water and blood draining from his body signify
                  the draining away of his physical life, so the spritual water and blood of
                  the Spirit draining from his soul signifies the draining away of his
                  soul-life, so that he totally dies, in both body and soul, on the cross.

                  (Bob)
                  > 1 John 5:6 blood and water: This is he that came by water and blood,
                  [even]
                  > Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the
                  > Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                  (Frank)
                  The meaning, I think, is that Jesus Christ came by the Spirit, who is not
                  just the spiritual water, but the spiritual blood as well. Further, it is
                  this Spirit, who is the Truth that can flow as rivers of discourse from a
                  soul, who bears witness to the truthfulness of this statement.

                  (Bob)
                  > 1 John 5:8 consistency of the witness: And there are three that bear
                  witness
                  > in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree
                  in
                  > one.

                  (Frank)
                  They agree in one because they are one and the same thing--the water being
                  the spiritual water that is the Spirit and the blood being the spiritual
                  blood that is the Spirit. So, what one affirms, they all affirm.

                  Bob, thank your for this opportunity to discuss these passages and how they
                  might be inter-related.

                  Frank McCoy
                  1809 N. English Apt. 17
                  Maplewood, MN USA 55109
                • Lorna Wilson
                  Bob, You mentioned something interesting in the relationship between the living water motif in the fourth gospel and the OT as you cited several references
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                    Bob,

                    You mentioned something interesting in the relationship between the 'living
                    water' motif in the fourth gospel and the OT as you cited several references
                    (Ge 26:19 Le 14:5 and Song 4:15). Now you have caught my attention because I
                    wrote a paper last year on Psalms 42-43 and notes the metaphoric usage of
                    God and water this psalm and the fourth gospel.

                    Psalm 42:1-2b
                    As a deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God.
                    My soul thirsts for God, for the "living" God,...

                    See also Michael Willett Newheart, Word and Soul, page 33 and Cullen I K
                    Story, The Fourth Gospel, page 178 on intertextual relationship between
                    Psalms 42 and Fourth Gospel.

                    In addition, some other OT references for 'living water' include: Jeremiah
                    2:3 and 17:13b (cf. Is. 55:1).

                    My time is limited but I found your email interesting and wanted to take
                    just a minute to respond. My paper goes into more detail and addresses the
                    motif of 'living water' in Psalms 42 and the thread throughout the Bible
                    including the fourth Gospel in particular.

                    Just something to think about.

                    Lorna Wilson

                    >From: Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...>
                    >Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: RE: [John_Lit] water to wine
                    >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:37:41 -0700
                    >
                    >Bob Schacht pointed to the uniqueness of living water in John.
                    >
                    >Is this a purity issue, living rather than well water?
                    >
                    >I found an old commentary (McGarvey and Pendleton 1914): '"Living water"
                    >would mean literally "running" or "spring water," as contrasted with still
                    >or cistern water (Ge 26:19 Le 14:5)... continual, untold refreshing (Re
                    >7:17). The reviving and regenerating effects of the Holy Spirit are
                    >likewise
                    >called living water (Joh 7:37-39).' Very traditional - already digested for
                    >us!
                    >
                    >Perhaps Jesus had in mind Song 4:15: You are a garden spring, a well of
                    >fresh water flowing down from Lebanon.
                    >
                    >Seems to me that the image of the waters flowing out of the temple (Zech
                    >14:8 and Rev 22:2) might be connected also - Jesus did speak of the temple
                    >of his body... the waters flowed from his side.
                    >
                    >What is the significance of belly? koilias in the Greek - Jonah's whale's
                    >belly? A womb? (John 3:4) - it seems very gutsy language <g>!
                    >
                    >Bob
                    >
                    >mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                    >+ + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +
                    >
                    >Catch the foxes for us,
                    > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                    >for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                    >http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                    >
                    >
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                    Lorna


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                  • Thomas W Butler
                    Dear Jeff, Mark, Bob, Bob, Jim, Eric, Frank and J-Lit Listers, I have made a study of Johannine signs, particularly as they relate to Mosaic oracles. My work
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                      Dear Jeff, Mark, Bob, Bob, Jim, Eric, Frank and J-Lit Listers,

                      I have made a study of Johannine signs, particularly as
                      they relate to Mosaic oracles. My work also includes
                      a consideration of the temporal markers in the Fourth
                      Gospel. Some of my work may be of interest to you.

                      The word "hour (ora)" appears 24 times, and is scattered
                      throughout the gospel. I am writing a devotional guide to
                      the gospel called A Day with Jesus in which I have used
                      the word "hour" as an end marker within the text. Each
                      portion of text that ends when the word "hour" is used,
                      contains numerous signs that relate to Mosaic oracles.

                      I believe that the gospel was intended to be used as a text
                      book for the training of disciples in the discipline of
                      theological reflection, using the method commonly used
                      in rabbinic schools of that time: expounding upon the
                      meaning of a text, by using the language of sacred scripture,
                      especially the Torah.

                      The gospel is both an example of the product of such a
                      method and a means of prompting the reader to engage
                      in that method, first by discerning the signs that are being
                      used that way (in each "hour") and then expounding upon
                      the possible meanings of those signs.

                      With regard to John 2: 1-11 (or 12), the first sign is the
                      transformation of waters of purification into wine.

                      This establishes a pattern in which the oracles used in the
                      Mosaic texts with regard to the temple, the priesthood and
                      the rituals of sacrifice are used within the context of the
                      Jesus narrative in a way that suggests a new tradition is
                      being established out of the building blocks of the old one.
                      In this case, the stone jars used to contain the waters of
                      purification are used to supply the jars which are used to
                      poor the wine for the wedding feast.

                      I agree with James Rudolf that the reader is expected to
                      see this as a sacramental wine, even though the ritual of
                      the Eucharist is not explicitly presented as a part of the
                      narrative. (One could say that the entire gospel functions
                      as a haggada for the Passover of the Followers of Jesus).
                      In other words, the rhetorical transformation that takes
                      place is the replacement of water for purification with
                      (sacramental) wine for purification. The new tradition
                      comes forth from the old tradition, but takes on a new
                      form.

                      In light of this approach, here are my responses to Jeff's
                      interesting set of questions:

                      > Jeff Staley writes:
                      >
                      > The "signs" in John are great places to explore, rhetorically.
                      > I wrote briefly about the rhetorical significance of this sign
                      > in my dissertation (published in 1988 by Scholars Press)
                      > entitled "The Print's First Kiss."
                      >
                      > A number of things in this miracle story interest me from a
                      > rheotrical standpoint:

                      > 1) Exactly when does the miracle occur?

                      The sign is delivered as Jesus issues two commands.
                      1. Fill the jars with water.
                      2. Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.

                      By filling the stone jars with water, especially as the reader is
                      told that the jars are filled to the brim, the reader is expected
                      to see that what is being transformed is the full tradition.

                      By drawing water out of these jars, the reader is expected to
                      see that what Jesus will offer comes out of the tradition. By
                      directing that it be taken to the wine steward (the ruler of the
                      feast), the quality of what is being offered is being submitted
                      for examination and evaluation.

                      The reader is allowed to see that the judge of this new tradition
                      will recognize its quality without knowing from whence it has
                      come or by whom. However, those who have obeyed the
                      commands of Jesus DO know from whence it comes and by
                      whom.

                      The source of the language / symbols used as "signs" in the
                      Fourth Gospel is the Pentateuch. (More specifically, the
                      Septuagint version of the Pentateuch). The Fourth Gospel
                      is a record of the theological transfer from the Mosaic
                      tradition to the Jesus tradition of sacred language, images,
                      names and symbols.

                      > 2) When do we as readers know that a miracle has occurred?

                      The readers know that a miracle has occurred when the narrator
                      informs them that the water has become wine (vs. 9). That this
                      transfer (transformation) is an improvement is affirmed in the
                      response provided by the steward (vs. 10).

                      > 3) Who, among the characters in the story, know/s that a
                      > miracle has occurred?

                      We are only told that the steward knew, and that the steward
                      shared this knowledge with the bridegroom. This leads to a
                      pair of questions: Who is the wine steward? Who is the bride-
                      groom? In the Johannine community as now these questions
                      no doubt prompted some wonderful discussions, not only
                      because the possible answers are rich and varied, but because
                      extensions of the questions themselves can be rich and varied.
                      (Who is the judge of the tradition? Who is the bride?)

                      > 4) At what point do we as readers suspect that something
                      > more than purification is at issue here?

                      When the mother of Jesus tells Jesus "They have no wine,"
                      and Jesus replies, "Woman, what concern is that to you and
                      to me? My hour is not yet come." Clearly there is a dis-
                      agreement between Jesus and his mother as to the significance
                      of the moment that is about to be described.

                      I think it is significant that Jesus addresses his mother as
                      "Woman." (Note that he does this again when hanging on the
                      cross.) I have drawn a connection between these two
                      passages and Genesis 3: 15, which would suggest that Mary
                      KNOWS that Jesus is the offspring of Woman, who will
                      strike the head of the serpent, while the serpent will strike
                      against his heal. She is apparently ready to get on with the
                      plot, while Jesus knows that some time will pass before the
                      ancient divine prophesy is fulfilled. Still, at this moment in
                      time, the fulfillment of that prophesy begins.

                      > 5) What is the significance of these?

                      This story serves to announce the beginning of the mission of
                      Jesus, which is the transformation of a system of worship that
                      has become dysfunctional into one that can maintain a renewed
                      and living covenant with God.

                      Yours in Christ's service,
                      Tom Butler

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bob MacDonald
                      Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread. Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward. I think we have drawn some out and I think I
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                        Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread.

                        "Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward."

                        I think we have drawn some out and I think I have tasted here some very good
                        wine. Frank has pointed out before some of the literary affinity that Philo
                        has with John. The depth of the flavour of the Tanach (Psalm 42, Song, and
                        Moses)

                        This being a literature dialogue - I have a trouble with scholarship and the
                        use of imagery. There seems to be a severe tension here. Without some care,
                        we might extend an image too far. With too much care, we might miss the
                        point entirely.

                        How does one know how far to stretch a metaphor?

                        Bob

                        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

                        Catch the foxes for us,
                        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                      • Bob Schacht
                        ... Only as far as the author intended! :-) Bob Schacht
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                          At 08:19 PM 6/29/2002 -0700, Bob MacDonald wrote:
                          >Thanks to all for the very interesting replies in this thread.
                          >
                          >"Draw some out, and take it to the chief steward."
                          >
                          >I think we have drawn some out and I think I have tasted here some very good
                          >wine. Frank has pointed out before some of the literary affinity that Philo
                          >has with John. The depth of the flavour of the Tanach (Psalm 42, Song, and
                          >Moses)
                          >
                          >This being a literature dialogue - I have a trouble with scholarship and the
                          >use of imagery. There seems to be a severe tension here. Without some care,
                          >we might extend an image too far. With too much care, we might miss the
                          >point entirely.
                          >
                          >How does one know how far to stretch a metaphor?

                          Only as far as the author intended! :-)
                          Bob Schacht
                        • efholer
                          James and others, I m partially through Jeff s dissertation, very stimulating. Perhaps now would be the time to see how many on the list are in the Seattle
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 29, 2002
                            James and others,

                            I'm partially through Jeff's dissertation, very stimulating. Perhaps now
                            would be the time to see how many on the list are in the Seattle area and
                            would be interested in meeting for coffee (or whatever your cup of tea might
                            be) and conversation. Anyone who is interested please email me with
                            suggestions for a time and place.

                            And yes, I am familiar with Culpepper's work. P. Duke and M. Stibbe have
                            also been helpful to me for the literary approach.

                            > As far as John 2:1-11, from a literary perspective, have you considered
                            > what the miracle "does?" Why is this miracle here? What purpose does
                            > it serve? No one is healed. The only people who benefit from this
                            > miracle do so unwittingly. From all appearances, no "sign" is done to
                            > point to Jesus as God in the flesh, or to show His power in some
                            > extraordinary way.

                            Your point on the ignorant beneficiaries is something I have been thinking
                            about. All of the sign-miracles benefit someone, whether a healing or a
                            feeding, etc., but at the wedding in Cana the met need seems somewhat
                            superficial in comparison. In considering the honor/shame aspect of the
                            culture, however, perhaps the sign is just as compassionate as healing and
                            feeding. I'm curious how this aspect, that of always meeting a need, works
                            for the author to develop Jesus, the God-man - perhaps to show additional
                            motive characterization beyond his coming to do the Father's will.

                            Also, taking the healing of the blind man as an example - Jesus meets his
                            need both physically and spiritually, the healing directly corresponding to
                            the need(s) of the man. However, I'm missing the same connection in 2:1-11.
                            The need is more wine, and the sign itself seems to point to
                            replacement/transformation of purification rites. I'm curious about the
                            correspondence between the physical obvious need and the deeper spiritual
                            need...

                            Are any of you familiar with Koester's work, 'Symbolism in the Fourth
                            Gospel'? I think he has a great introduction on the role of the signs in the
                            FG, but I was dissapointed in the commentary on the wedding pericope. I'll
                            review my notes on the book and see if there something beneficial for our
                            discussion.

                            Your other comments were helpful. I'm curious about the connection/inclusio
                            formed by the use of 'mother of Jesus' and 'wine' in both the wedding
                            pericope and the crucifixion scene. Has anyone looked thoroughly at that?

                            Cut and pasted from Jeff Staley:

                            What I am saying, is that in my reading, this is perhaps the most
                            rhetorically open
                            miracle in the FG--perhaps in all of the NT--perhaps in the ancient world.
                            It is purposefully difficult to pin down.

                            Eric responds:

                            No good author gives the prize away so soon =) The difficulty for me is
                            having read the gospel so many times that I lose the feeling of suspense
                            during a first reading. I agree, the diffululty of this scene is purposeful,
                            incites/invites the reader to reread and move forward - indeed, I don't know
                            anyone who is not driven to reread the whole once he or she has come to the
                            end.

                            Lastly, I was intrigued by Frank's use of Philo for understanding aspects of
                            the FG. Given the contemporaneity of the two authors and obvious parallels
                            between their work (some stronger than others), how does one make the jump
                            from observing similarity in the texts to comparison for the sake of better
                            understanding them both? This is more a question concerning hermeneutics
                            than one concerning the FG, but I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this
                            issue. Also, I'm not familiar with Philo's works - if there's anyone on the
                            list who disagrees with Frank's use of Philo, I'd like to hear from them.

                            To all - thanks for the great thoughts - I didn't expect my introduction to
                            start a dialogue - so if my posts are infrequent, it's just that I'm more
                            comfortable listening than 'speaking' - I'm still a child in the world of
                            Johannine scholarship.

                            Eric Fholer
                            Northwest Theological Seminary
                            Lynnwood Wa
                          • Jack C Pilato
                            Just a thought and perhaps in left field. But here goes. Christ came to fulfill the law to perfection. When his mother asked him to do something to help, he
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 30, 2002
                              Just a thought and perhaps in left field. But here goes.

                              Christ came to fulfill the law to perfection. When his mother asked him
                              to do something to help, he did what was required by the law to honor
                              his mother. The further meaning then is that God hears all our requests
                              no matter how mundane or trivial in the eyes of others. If the request
                              is important to us it is important to Him and He will honor them if they
                              are within his permissive will.

                              Jack
                            • Bob MacDonald
                              It seems to me that the rhetorical analysis is a synonym for metaphor stretching - and Bob Schacht has pointed to the author as authority for the limits on
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 30, 2002
                                It seems to me that the rhetorical analysis is a synonym for metaphor
                                stretching - and Bob Schacht has pointed to the author as authority for the
                                limits on stretching. (Lots of scope for stretching with John).

                                Yesterday I was at a wedding and a little boy stretched his balloon too far
                                with predictable results - a loud bang and tears of shock. But if he had
                                not stretched it at all, authority of the material aside, he would not have
                                learned as much about balloons.

                                This is the second wedding in two days, the earlier one very traditional
                                Cranmer prayer book service (with reference to Cana of course and Ephesians
                                5 and so on), the second otherwise. The second conflicted with a funeral -
                                my wife and I attended both, singing at one and eating at the other. How far
                                can I stretch the wedding metaphor in John? What was really going on in
                                Cana? Did the 16th century interpretation of the lawfulness of marriage have
                                anything to do with it? Or was that a 16th century binding only. Each of
                                these words requires a book.

                                The issue of metaphor and usage is very dear to me and my understanding of
                                the Bible. Many have stretched the metaphors in ways that clearly need
                                correction; yet many have not stretched sufficiently and end up with an
                                impoverished tradition. We are bound (religio) by the stretching we
                                achieve. And as Jesus says - what we bind here is bound in heaven; what we
                                loose here is loosed in heaven.

                                Now to answer the rhetorical questions as Tom Butler did but with variation.

                                1) Exactly when does the miracle occur?

                                When we begin to hear the story not just as consecrating a wedding but as
                                foreshadowing Jesus' death. It is good that the process of marrying and
                                being given in marriage can continue (though some would forbid it) - but the
                                real marriage is otherwise - all whom the Father gives me shall come to me.
                                (6:37) This is our 'bridegroom of blood' (Exodus 4).

                                2) When do we as readers know that a miracle has occurred?

                                When the disciples believe. - These are the same disciples as the synoptic
                                gospels! They have hard hearts and get it all wrong. So it is with us.
                                John is not writing about those same quarrelsome disciples.

                                3) Who, among the characters in the story, know/s that a miracle has
                                occurred?

                                The Father (the steward) and the Son (the bridegroom) know when we (the
                                bride) are ready. The bride (Mary, us, the reader) know also. But the mass
                                of the tradition does not.

                                4) At what point do we as readers suspect that something more than
                                purification is at issue here?

                                When we are born. The morality of our traditions is not adequate to the
                                variety of our conditions.

                                5) What is the significance of these?

                                The potential for life is here in abundance. The work of obedience to Jesus'
                                commands still needs to be done. The wine of God's wrath needs to be drunk.
                                The wine is the blood of the Eucharist by which our death is included in his
                                death, so that his life might be known in our life.

                                I think all these points could be supported by John's gospel - but whether
                                the balloon will break - ... maybe I have only just begun to blow it up -
                                tough material at first - hurts the cheeks.

                                abundant blessings of stretched metaphor to you all

                                Bob

                                mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                                + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

                                Catch the foxes for us,
                                the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                              • Elizabeth Danna
                                The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly. Briefly, what is the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 18, 2002
                                  The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked
                                  some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly.

                                  Briefly, what is the connection between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39? For
                                  reasons which will become clear I had better offer a translation of the
                                  latter passage: "If anyone is thirsty let them come to me, and let the
                                  one who believes in me drink. As the Scripture says, 'Out of his
                                  insides will flow rivers of living water.' He said this about the
                                  Spirit, which those who believed in him would receive; for the Spirit
                                  had not yet been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."

                                  There are several links between these two passages. The most
                                  obvious is the water symbolism in each. In both passages Jesus is the
                                  source of drink. At 2:7 the servants, at Jesus' instruction, fill the
                                  water jars to the brim, which suggests abundance. And there is
                                  something about the idea of "rivers of water flowing out" which also
                                  suggests an abundance of what is supplied. Both passages also mention
                                  believers in Jesus, and Jesus' glory (having read 2:21f, the implied
                                  reader is able to guess that the glorification of Jesus mentioned at
                                  7:39 refers to his death). I suggest that AUTOU at 7:38 refers to
                                  Jesus, not the believer. Do these connections suggest that my
                                  interpretation of 7:38 is correct?

                                  Elizabeth Danna
                                • kymhsm
                                  Dear Elizabeth, It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the He who believes in me , not
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 18, 2002
                                    Dear Elizabeth,

                                    It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                                    heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who believes
                                    in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                                    I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                                    to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.

                                    This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                                    source of the living water/Spirit.

                                    Kym Smith
                                    Adelide
                                    South Australia
                                    khs@...
                                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                    ... whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the He who believes in me , not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, ...the water I shall
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 18, 2002
                                      Kym Smith responded to Elizabeth:

                                      >>It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from
                                      whose heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is
                                      the 'He who believes in me', not Jesus. If you throw
                                      into the equation 4:14, '...the water I shall give him
                                      will become in him a spring of water welling up to
                                      eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.<<

                                      I've often wondered if Jn. 7:38 is intentionally
                                      ambiguous and thereby intended to refer to both Jesus
                                      and the believer.

                                      Has anyone suggested this or a category of ambiguity
                                      in John? -- call it Johannine ambiguity, by analogy to
                                      Johannine irony.

                                      Jeffery Hodges

                                      =====
                                      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                                      447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                                      Yangsandong 411
                                      South Korea

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                                    • Bob Schacht
                                      ... Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the He who... or Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*? Bob Robert M. Schacht
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 18, 2002
                                        At 01:00 AM 8/19/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                                        >Dear Elizabeth,
                                        >
                                        >It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                                        >heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who believes
                                        >in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                                        >I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                                        >to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.
                                        >
                                        >This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                                        >source of the living water/Spirit.

                                        Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the "He who..." or
                                        Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?
                                        Bob


                                        Robert M. Schacht
                                        Flagstaff, AZ
                                        If I were a Rich Man...I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men,
                                        several hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of all.
                                        Fiddler on the Roof

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • kymhsm
                                        Dear Bob, My post was,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 19, 2002
                                          Dear Bob,

                                          <<< Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the
                                          "He who..." or Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?>>>

                                          My post was, admittedly, only from looking at the English text. I
                                          am no Greek expert. For me it is out with the exicons etc. But
                                          from the brief look I have had I think the Greek is quite
                                          unambiguous. Someone else may correct me but that is my
                                          reading of it. Though the source must and can only be Christ, it
                                          is the believer out of whom the living waters flow.

                                          Sincerely,

                                          Kym Smith
                                          Adelaide
                                          South Australia
                                          khs@...



                                          --- In johannine_literature@y..., Bob Schacht <r_schacht@y...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > At 01:00 AM 8/19/2002 +0000, you wrote:
                                          > >Dear Elizabeth,
                                          > >
                                          > >It appears to me that in Jn 7:38 the subject, from whose
                                          > >heart/belly will flow rivers of living water, is the 'He who
                                          believes
                                          > >in me', not Jesus. If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the
                                          water
                                          > >I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling
                                          up
                                          > >to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.
                                          > >
                                          > >This is not to deny that Jesus, with the Father, is the ultimate
                                          > >source of the living water/Spirit.
                                          >
                                          > Is the Greek sufficiently precise to distinguish whether the "He
                                          who..." or
                                          > Jesus is merely the *conduit,* or the *source*?
                                          > Bob
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Robert M. Schacht
                                          > Flagstaff, AZ
                                          > If I were a Rich Man...I'd discuss the holy books with the
                                          learned men,
                                          > several hours every day. That would be the sweetest thing of
                                          all.
                                          > Fiddler on the Roof
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mary Coloe
                                          I read 7:37 with 7:39 which speaks about a later time when the Spirit will be given, compared with the now time. In this context in the present time Jesus is
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 20, 2002
                                            I read 7:37 with 7:39 which speaks about a later time when the Spirit will
                                            be given, compared with the now time.
                                            In this context in the present time Jesus is the source of living water as
                                            he promised the Samaritan woman.
                                            But there will be a time in the future when the historical Jesus will no
                                            longer be present and in that future time he promises that
                                            believers, because of the gift of the SPirit, will become sources of living
                                            water. Behind both statementsI have argued lies the image of the Temple.
                                            Jesus as the new Temple (2:21) is able to provide waters (Ez 49), but as he
                                            promises when this temple of his body is destroyed he will raise a Temple
                                            in its plcae (2:19).
                                            This Temple is the Temple of the believing community, transformed through
                                            the 'Hour' into the new house(hold) of God.

                                            If you would like to see more detailed arguments and references to the
                                            above lines of thought may I suggest my book, God Dwells with us - Temple
                                            Symbolism in the Fourth Gospel - Loturgical Press, 2001.
                                            In emails its just not possible to give the details of the exegesis.
                                            Best wishes.

                                            Dr. Mary Coloe pbvm
                                            Australian Catholic University Limited
                                            (ABN 15050 192660)

                                            Locked Bag 4115
                                            Fitzroy. VIC 3065 AUSTRALIA

                                            ph (61 + 3) 99533137 Fax (61 + 3) 99533245
                                            M.Coloe@...
                                          • Elizabeth Danna
                                            ... But even in this verse it is said, twice, that it is Jesus who gives the water. Elizabeth Danna
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 20, 2002
                                              kymhsm wrote:

                                              > If you throw into the equation 4:14, '...the water
                                              > I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
                                              > to eternal life' I think the meaning is clear.

                                              But even in this verse it is said, twice, that it is Jesus who gives the
                                              water.

                                              Elizabeth Danna
                                            • fmmccoy
                                              ... From: Elizabeth Danna To: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit]
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 20, 2002
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Elizabeth Danna" <ejdanna@...>
                                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:05 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] water to wine


                                                > The recent discussion of water in the wedding narrative has sparked
                                                > some thoughts which I would like to share, if somewhat belatedly.
                                                >
                                                > Briefly, what is the connection between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39? For
                                                > reasons which will become clear I had better offer a translation of the
                                                > latter passage: "If anyone is thirsty let them come to me, and let the
                                                > one who believes in me drink. As the Scripture says, 'Out of his
                                                > insides will flow rivers of living water.' He said this about the
                                                > Spirit, which those who believed in him would receive; for the Spirit
                                                > had not yet been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
                                                >
                                                > There are several links between these two passages. The most
                                                > obvious is the water symbolism in each. In both passages Jesus is the
                                                > source of drink. At 2:7 the servants, at Jesus' instruction, fill the
                                                > water jars to the brim, which suggests abundance. And there is
                                                > something about the idea of "rivers of water flowing out" which also
                                                > suggests an abundance of what is supplied. Both passages also mention
                                                > believers in Jesus, and Jesus' glory (having read 2:21f, the implied
                                                > reader is able to guess that the glorification of Jesus mentioned at
                                                > 7:39 refers to his death). I suggest that AUTOU at 7:38 refers to
                                                > Jesus, not the believer. Do these connections suggest that my
                                                > interpretation of 7:38 is correct?
                                                >

                                                Dear Elizabeth Danna:

                                                That there are connections between 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39 is undeniable.

                                                2:1-11, though, ISTM, gives us a mixed message as respects the question of
                                                whether the AUTOU of 7:38 refers to Jesus or to a believer.

                                                In 2:1-11, it is the servants who pour the water into the stone water jars
                                                and who take this water become wine to the master of the feast.

                                                To the extent that 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39 are connected, this suggests that the
                                                AUTOU refers to a believer: for if a number of people are involved in the
                                                giving of the water in 2:1-11, then this should be the case in 7:37c-39--and
                                                there are many who are believers, but only one Jesus.

                                                On the other hand, in 2:1-11, the bridegroom is praised for saving the good
                                                wine till the end--which suggests that he alone is the source for the water
                                                become wine.

                                                To the extent that 7:37c-39 are connected, this suggests that the AUTOU
                                                refers to a single individual, i.e., Jesus.

                                                So, ISTM, on one level of 2:1-11, there are a number of people responsible
                                                for the giving of the water become wine while, on another level of 2:1-11,
                                                only the bridegroom is responsible for the giving of the water become wine.
                                                The first level of meaning lends support to the idea that the AUTOU of 7:38
                                                is a believer, while the second level of meaning lends support to the idea
                                                that the AUTOU of 7:38 is Jesus.

                                                If you could establish that (1) the second level of meaning to 2:1-11 is the
                                                only true level of meaning, so that, in it, it is *only* the bridegroom who
                                                is truly responsible for the water become wine and that (2) on this second
                                                level of meaning the bridegroom is the Bridegroom of 3:29 (i.e., Jesus) and
                                                that (3) on this second level of meaning the water become wine is the
                                                Spirit, then, ISTM, you could use the connections betwen 2:1-11 and 7:37c-39
                                                as supporting evidence for your suggestion that the AUTOU of 7:38 is Jesus.

                                                Just a thought--hopefully a helpful one.

                                                Frank McCoy
                                                1809 N. English Apt. 17
                                                Maplewood, MN 55109
                                              • kymhsm
                                                Dear Elizabeth, You wrote: I am sorry if I am missing
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 20, 2002
                                                  Dear Elizabeth,

                                                  You wrote:

                                                  <<<But even in this verse (i.e. Jn 4:14) it is said, twice, that it is
                                                  Jesus who gives the water.>>>

                                                  I am sorry if I am missing something, but I am not sure what the
                                                  need for your comment is. I have responded twice, both posts
                                                  are very short, and in both posts I have insisted that God/the
                                                  Father/Jesus is/are the source of the living water.

                                                  A number of OT references such as Jer 2:13; 17:13; Ezek 47
                                                  also make it clear that God is the source of the living water.

                                                  The issue is that we are not given the Spirit to keep to ourselves.
                                                  Jesus' promise of the Spirit / living water in the passages under
                                                  discussion indicates that the life he gives us is to be lived out.
                                                  Through us that life, the life of the Spirit, is to flow out into the
                                                  world in which we live. We are never the source of that life / Spirit,
                                                  but we are called to be healthy springs issuing forth that which
                                                  God, the 'fountain of living waters' (Jer 2:13), has given to us.

                                                  Sincerely,

                                                  Kym Smith
                                                  Adelaide
                                                  South Australia
                                                  khs@...
                                                • Elizabeth Danna
                                                  ... You have, and I should have made a note of that in my own post - my apologies. My point is that while you stress one aspect of 4:14, I stress another.
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 21, 2002
                                                    kymhsm wrote:

                                                    > Dear Elizabeth,
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > <<<But even in this verse (i.e. Jn 4:14) it is said, twice, that it is
                                                    > Jesus who gives the water.>>>
                                                    >
                                                    > I am sorry if I am missing something, but I am not sure what the
                                                    > need for your comment is. I have responded twice, both posts
                                                    > are very short, and in both posts I have insisted that God/the
                                                    > Father/Jesus is/are the source of the living water.

                                                    You have, and I should have made a note of that in my own post - my
                                                    apologies. My point is that while you stress one aspect of 4:14, I stress
                                                    another.

                                                    Elizabeth Danna
                                                  • Elizabeth Danna
                                                    fmmccoy wrote: [interesting post snipped for space reasons] ... Helpful indeed - thank you, Frank. Elizabeth Danna
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 21, 2002
                                                      fmmccoy wrote:
                                                      [interesting post snipped for space reasons]

                                                      > Just a thought--hopefully a helpful one.

                                                      Helpful indeed - thank you, Frank.

                                                      Elizabeth Danna
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