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Re: [John_Lit] Jn 2:1-11 in the Persian Diatessaron

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  • frides lameris
    Dear Yuri, I m still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11) and
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 10, 2002
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      Dear Yuri,

      I'm still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian
      Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11) and
      MG-text.

      I have one question to you in advance.

      Are you aware that the first papyri of gospel fragments are of the Gospel of
      John, and may be dated earliest 125, latest 150?

      This information was not availalbe at the time A. Loisy (whom you consider
      to be you mentor as I found on your website) wrote his books. Gospel of John
      can therefore not be dated very late.

      A.F.J. Klijn told me once, that because the gospel of John had reached Egypt
      already in that time (and was accepted), it must have been in use already
      for a while.

      I add to this, that Gospel of John must have had a very good (apostolic)
      status to be accepted as a gospel, even or especially when the other gospels
      would already have been in existence.

      It is only known in its final form and all 'protodesigns' are questionable .
      They are simply creations ('imaginations') of literary criticism. Historical
      science knows little of their existence!

      Appreciate your persistence to bring MG under attention of list members, but
      prospects for general agreements (to me) seem to be far away.

      If we suppose there to be pre-canonical texts of John, we can suppose. You
      would however have to produce a guess what would have been present in the
      earlier edition. You can't escape, I fear, to make reconstructions
      (conjectures) to what the 'original' GREEK (or for that matter even
      ARAMAIC!) text may have looked like.

      Kind regards

      Frides
    • Yuri Kuchinsky
      ... Hello, Frides, Looking forward to this! ... I think you re talking about the Rylands Papyrus (P52) now. It was first published in 1935 and, right away,
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 11, 2002
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        On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, frides lameris wrote in johannine_literature-l:

        > Dear Yuri,
        >
        > I'm still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian
        > Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11)
        > and MG-text.

        Hello, Frides,

        Looking forward to this!

        > I have one question to you in advance.
        >
        > Are you aware that the first papyri of gospel fragments are of the
        > Gospel of John, and may be dated earliest 125, latest 150?
        >
        > This information was not availalbe at the time A. Loisy (whom you
        > consider to be you mentor as I found on your website) wrote his books.
        > Gospel of John can therefore not be dated very late.
        >
        > A.F.J. Klijn told me once, that because the gospel of John had reached
        > Egypt already in that time (and was accepted), it must have been in
        > use already for a while.

        I think you're talking about the Rylands Papyrus (P52) now. It was first
        published in 1935 and, right away, attracted a lot of attention. It's true
        that it can be considered as something of a problem for Loisy (who passed
        away in 1940) because Loisy was a very late dater of the final editions of
        all 4 canonical gospels. Unfortunately, I don't know if Loisy made any
        specific comments about it in his last years.

        But, as I understand it, recently there's a trend to date Rylands somewhat
        later, i.e. to the second half of 2c. If it's so dated, then it would not
        really present any big problems for Loisy's theories at all.

        In any case, I think we should be cautious about those very early datings
        of Rylands, and how much weight can be placed on them. After all, this is
        just a very small scrap of papyrus, which contains, I believe, only 118
        legible letters. So how certain can we really be about a paleographic
        determination for such a small sample of text?

        And how precise paleographic dating is, in any case, even for the very
        long and well preserved mss? Opinions differ.

        Also, I would like to note the recent article by C. Tuckett in the New
        Testament Studies, "P52 and Nomina Sacra" (October 2001). In this article,
        he tried to find the Nomina Sacra in our MS Rylands, but was unsuccessful.
        (He did a detailed study of the line-length, and word-spacing in this ms.)
        So he concluded that 'Jesus' was written in full in the two instances
        where one might have expected to find Nomina Sacra in MS Rylands. But it
        is generally believed that there was a regular practice of abbreviating
        nomina sacra in early Christianity. So this seems at odds with a very
        early dating of Rylands, although, admittedly, this is not rock-solid
        evidence.

        In any case, here, very briefly, is my general position on the textual
        history of the Fourth Gospel. In my view, the Magdalene Gospel preserves
        many passages of an earlier, pre-canonical edition of Jn. I date this
        edition previous to ca 150 CE, which is when I date MG. Just how much
        further back before 150 CE this text may go is not really an essential
        matter for me at this point. Indeed, there is probably some material there
        that goes back to well before 100 CE.

        But very soon after 150 CE, Jn was substantially re-edited and expanded to
        result in our current canonical text. This was completed already by the
        time of Irenaeus. So, at the moment, I'm aware of no evidence,
        paleographic or otherwise, that would really contradict this general
        picture of John's history.

        > I add to this, that Gospel of John must have had a very good
        > (apostolic) status to be accepted as a gospel, even or especially when
        > the other gospels would already have been in existence.
        >
        > It is only known in its final form and all 'protodesigns' are
        > questionable. They are simply creations ('imaginations') of literary
        > criticism. Historical science knows little of their existence!

        I agree that there are currently many theories in this area, but little
        hard textual confirmation for them. But now, there may be some.

        > Appreciate your persistence to bring MG under attention of list
        > members, but prospects for general agreements (to me) seem to be far
        > away.

        All I want to do at this point is to test this new evidence before
        knowledgeable scholars. I don't really expect people to agree with me, but
        more to point out some weaknesses in my arguments.

        > If we suppose there to be pre-canonical texts of John, we can suppose.
        > You would however have to produce a guess what would have been present
        > in the earlier edition. You can't escape, I fear, to make
        > reconstructions (conjectures) to what the 'original' GREEK (or for
        > that matter even ARAMAIC!) text may have looked like.

        Well, this isn't really so hard. What I'm saying is that I have many
        substantial passages from an earlier, pre-canonical edition of Jn,
        reasonably well-preserved. With time, this can be back-translated into
        various ancient languages easily enough.

        Best wishes,

        Yuri.

        Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

        The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
        equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
      • Paul Anderson
        Dear Colleagues, May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St.
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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          Dear Colleagues,

          May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
          Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
          on the following website:

          http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html

          Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
          thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
          and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.

          All the best!

          Paul Anderson
        • Matthew Estrada
          Paul, May I ask what text the below paragraph from the website that you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and Williams) will
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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            Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph from the website that you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and Williams) will be discussing? thank you. Matt Estrada

            "This will be a major opportunity for biblical scholars and Christian theologians to come together in dialogue around a biblical text which has had a profound influence on Christian theology, especially in the classic formative periods of the theological tradition but which has often been found theologically problematic in the modern period."

            Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote: Dear Colleagues,

            May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
            Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
            on the following website:

            http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html

            Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
            thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
            and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.

            All the best!

            Paul Anderson


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          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            ... I realize that you re addressing Paul, and he can correct me if I m wrong, but I took the text to mean the Johannine text as a whole. Jeffery Hodges
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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              Matthew Estrada wrote:

              > Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph
              > from the website that you provided for us refers to
              > that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and
              > Williams) will be discussing?

              I realize that you're addressing Paul, and he can
              correct me if I'm wrong, but I took the "text" to mean
              the Johannine text as a whole.

              Jeffery Hodges

              =====
              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
              447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
              Yangsandong 411
              South Korea

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            • Paul Anderson
              ... The text referred to is the Gospel of John, and analyses will consider John s extensive impact on Christian theology. Thanks for asking, Paul Anderson
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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                johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
                >
                > Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph from the website that
                >you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann,
                >and Williams) will be discussing? thank you. Matt Estrada

                The text referred to is the Gospel of John, and analyses will consider
                John's extensive impact on Christian theology.

                Thanks for asking,

                Paul Anderson
                >
                >
                >"This will be a major opportunity for biblical scholars and Christian
                >theologians to come together in dialogue around a biblical text which has
                >had a profound influence on Christian theology, especially in the classic
                >formative periods of the theological tradition but which has often been
                >found theologically problematic in the modern period."
                >
                > Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote: Dear Colleagues,
                >
                >May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
                >Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
                >on the following website:
                >
                >http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html
                >
                >Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
                >thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
                >and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.
                >
                >All the best!
                >
                >Paul Anderson
                >
                >
                >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >---------------------------------
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                >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Thomas W Butler
                Dear Paul, Thank you for the heads up re: the John and Christian Theology Conference set for June / July 03. I am particularly interested in the Lazarus
                Message 7 of 8 , May 1, 2002
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                  Dear Paul,
                  Thank you for the "heads up" re: the John and Christian Theology
                  Conference set for June / July 03.
                  I am particularly interested in the Lazarus Narrative portion of
                  the program. Are the presenters authors on this topic? Do you
                  know something about their perspectives? Will that and other
                  portions of the program be published for those unable to attend?

                  Yours in Christ's service,
                  Tom Butler

                  On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:18:36 -0700 "Paul Anderson"
                  <panderso@...> writes:
                  > Dear Colleagues,
                  >
                  > May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference
                  > on John and Christian theology over a year from now at the
                  > University of St. Andrews on the following website:
                  >
                  > http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html
                  >
                  > Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges,
                  > but I thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for
                  > travel plans and that some might even want to consider proposing
                  > shorter papers.
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