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Re: [John_Lit] Jn 2:1-11 in the Persian Diatessaron

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  • Emmanuel Fritsch
    ... Yuri, I do not see in your various posts any reference to Boismard. Since this author has pointed out the importance of Pepys Gospel Harmony for a
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 8, 2002
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      > This is to follow up on my previous post of Mar 26, where I brought up the
      > subject of the Persian Diatessaron, and the version of Jn 2:1-11 that is
      > found there,
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/2470

      Yuri,

      I do not see in your various posts any reference to Boismard.
      Since this author has pointed out the importance of Pepys Gospel
      Harmony for a pre-cannonical text, and since he writes that he was
      interested in PGH during his study on John, (see the introduction of
      "Le Diatessaron...") You should have a look on Boismard's work about
      GJohn before going further. It is really possible that the way you
      want to go has yet been through.
      I can not be more precise because I still not have read this 3-volume
      work on John, but perhabs someone on johannine_literature may help you.

      a+
      manu

      Ref :
      "Le Diatessaron, de Tatien a Justin", M.-E. Boismard, Gabalda, 1992
      "Un Evangile Pre-Johannique", M.-E. Boismard, Gabalda, 1993-1996
    • frides lameris
      Dear Yuri, I m still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11) and
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 10, 2002
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        Dear Yuri,

        I'm still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian
        Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11) and
        MG-text.

        I have one question to you in advance.

        Are you aware that the first papyri of gospel fragments are of the Gospel of
        John, and may be dated earliest 125, latest 150?

        This information was not availalbe at the time A. Loisy (whom you consider
        to be you mentor as I found on your website) wrote his books. Gospel of John
        can therefore not be dated very late.

        A.F.J. Klijn told me once, that because the gospel of John had reached Egypt
        already in that time (and was accepted), it must have been in use already
        for a while.

        I add to this, that Gospel of John must have had a very good (apostolic)
        status to be accepted as a gospel, even or especially when the other gospels
        would already have been in existence.

        It is only known in its final form and all 'protodesigns' are questionable .
        They are simply creations ('imaginations') of literary criticism. Historical
        science knows little of their existence!

        Appreciate your persistence to bring MG under attention of list members, but
        prospects for general agreements (to me) seem to be far away.

        If we suppose there to be pre-canonical texts of John, we can suppose. You
        would however have to produce a guess what would have been present in the
        earlier edition. You can't escape, I fear, to make reconstructions
        (conjectures) to what the 'original' GREEK (or for that matter even
        ARAMAIC!) text may have looked like.

        Kind regards

        Frides
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Hello, Frides, Looking forward to this! ... I think you re talking about the Rylands Papyrus (P52) now. It was first published in 1935 and, right away,
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 11, 2002
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          On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, frides lameris wrote in johannine_literature-l:

          > Dear Yuri,
          >
          > I'm still preparing a (proper) reaction to your mail on the Persian
          > Diatessaron readings compared to the Canonical John text (Jn 2:1-11)
          > and MG-text.

          Hello, Frides,

          Looking forward to this!

          > I have one question to you in advance.
          >
          > Are you aware that the first papyri of gospel fragments are of the
          > Gospel of John, and may be dated earliest 125, latest 150?
          >
          > This information was not availalbe at the time A. Loisy (whom you
          > consider to be you mentor as I found on your website) wrote his books.
          > Gospel of John can therefore not be dated very late.
          >
          > A.F.J. Klijn told me once, that because the gospel of John had reached
          > Egypt already in that time (and was accepted), it must have been in
          > use already for a while.

          I think you're talking about the Rylands Papyrus (P52) now. It was first
          published in 1935 and, right away, attracted a lot of attention. It's true
          that it can be considered as something of a problem for Loisy (who passed
          away in 1940) because Loisy was a very late dater of the final editions of
          all 4 canonical gospels. Unfortunately, I don't know if Loisy made any
          specific comments about it in his last years.

          But, as I understand it, recently there's a trend to date Rylands somewhat
          later, i.e. to the second half of 2c. If it's so dated, then it would not
          really present any big problems for Loisy's theories at all.

          In any case, I think we should be cautious about those very early datings
          of Rylands, and how much weight can be placed on them. After all, this is
          just a very small scrap of papyrus, which contains, I believe, only 118
          legible letters. So how certain can we really be about a paleographic
          determination for such a small sample of text?

          And how precise paleographic dating is, in any case, even for the very
          long and well preserved mss? Opinions differ.

          Also, I would like to note the recent article by C. Tuckett in the New
          Testament Studies, "P52 and Nomina Sacra" (October 2001). In this article,
          he tried to find the Nomina Sacra in our MS Rylands, but was unsuccessful.
          (He did a detailed study of the line-length, and word-spacing in this ms.)
          So he concluded that 'Jesus' was written in full in the two instances
          where one might have expected to find Nomina Sacra in MS Rylands. But it
          is generally believed that there was a regular practice of abbreviating
          nomina sacra in early Christianity. So this seems at odds with a very
          early dating of Rylands, although, admittedly, this is not rock-solid
          evidence.

          In any case, here, very briefly, is my general position on the textual
          history of the Fourth Gospel. In my view, the Magdalene Gospel preserves
          many passages of an earlier, pre-canonical edition of Jn. I date this
          edition previous to ca 150 CE, which is when I date MG. Just how much
          further back before 150 CE this text may go is not really an essential
          matter for me at this point. Indeed, there is probably some material there
          that goes back to well before 100 CE.

          But very soon after 150 CE, Jn was substantially re-edited and expanded to
          result in our current canonical text. This was completed already by the
          time of Irenaeus. So, at the moment, I'm aware of no evidence,
          paleographic or otherwise, that would really contradict this general
          picture of John's history.

          > I add to this, that Gospel of John must have had a very good
          > (apostolic) status to be accepted as a gospel, even or especially when
          > the other gospels would already have been in existence.
          >
          > It is only known in its final form and all 'protodesigns' are
          > questionable. They are simply creations ('imaginations') of literary
          > criticism. Historical science knows little of their existence!

          I agree that there are currently many theories in this area, but little
          hard textual confirmation for them. But now, there may be some.

          > Appreciate your persistence to bring MG under attention of list
          > members, but prospects for general agreements (to me) seem to be far
          > away.

          All I want to do at this point is to test this new evidence before
          knowledgeable scholars. I don't really expect people to agree with me, but
          more to point out some weaknesses in my arguments.

          > If we suppose there to be pre-canonical texts of John, we can suppose.
          > You would however have to produce a guess what would have been present
          > in the earlier edition. You can't escape, I fear, to make
          > reconstructions (conjectures) to what the 'original' GREEK (or for
          > that matter even ARAMAIC!) text may have looked like.

          Well, this isn't really so hard. What I'm saying is that I have many
          substantial passages from an earlier, pre-canonical edition of Jn,
          reasonably well-preserved. With time, this can be back-translated into
          various ancient languages easily enough.

          Best wishes,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
        • Paul Anderson
          Dear Colleagues, May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St.
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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            Dear Colleagues,

            May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
            Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
            on the following website:

            http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html

            Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
            thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
            and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.

            All the best!

            Paul Anderson
          • Matthew Estrada
            Paul, May I ask what text the below paragraph from the website that you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and Williams) will
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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              Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph from the website that you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and Williams) will be discussing? thank you. Matt Estrada

              "This will be a major opportunity for biblical scholars and Christian theologians to come together in dialogue around a biblical text which has had a profound influence on Christian theology, especially in the classic formative periods of the theological tradition but which has often been found theologically problematic in the modern period."

              Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote: Dear Colleagues,

              May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
              Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
              on the following website:

              http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html

              Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
              thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
              and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.

              All the best!

              Paul Anderson


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            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              ... I realize that you re addressing Paul, and he can correct me if I m wrong, but I took the text to mean the Johannine text as a whole. Jeffery Hodges
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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                Matthew Estrada wrote:

                > Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph
                > from the website that you provided for us refers to
                > that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann, and
                > Williams) will be discussing?

                I realize that you're addressing Paul, and he can
                correct me if I'm wrong, but I took the "text" to mean
                the Johannine text as a whole.

                Jeffery Hodges

                =====
                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                Yangsandong 411
                South Korea

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              • Paul Anderson
                ... The text referred to is the Gospel of John, and analyses will consider John s extensive impact on Christian theology. Thanks for asking, Paul Anderson
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 30, 2002
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                  johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
                  >
                  > Paul, May I ask what "text" the below paragraph from the website that
                  >you provided for us refers to that these 3 scholars (Hengel, Moltmann,
                  >and Williams) will be discussing? thank you. Matt Estrada

                  The text referred to is the Gospel of John, and analyses will consider
                  John's extensive impact on Christian theology.

                  Thanks for asking,

                  Paul Anderson
                  >
                  >
                  >"This will be a major opportunity for biblical scholars and Christian
                  >theologians to come together in dialogue around a biblical text which has
                  >had a profound influence on Christian theology, especially in the classic
                  >formative periods of the theological tradition but which has often been
                  >found theologically problematic in the modern period."
                  >
                  > Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote: Dear Colleagues,
                  >
                  >May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference on John and
                  >Christian theology over a year from now at the University of St. Andrews
                  >on the following website:
                  >
                  >http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html
                  >
                  >Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges, but I
                  >thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for travel plans
                  >and that some might even want to consider proposing shorter papers.
                  >
                  >All the best!
                  >
                  >Paul Anderson
                  >
                  >
                  >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >
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                  >
                  >
                • Thomas W Butler
                  Dear Paul, Thank you for the heads up re: the John and Christian Theology Conference set for June / July 03. I am particularly interested in the Lazarus
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 1, 2002
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                    Dear Paul,
                    Thank you for the "heads up" re: the John and Christian Theology
                    Conference set for June / July 03.
                    I am particularly interested in the Lazarus Narrative portion of
                    the program. Are the presenters authors on this topic? Do you
                    know something about their perspectives? Will that and other
                    portions of the program be published for those unable to attend?

                    Yours in Christ's service,
                    Tom Butler

                    On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:18:36 -0700 "Paul Anderson"
                    <panderso@...> writes:
                    > Dear Colleagues,
                    >
                    > May I point out what promises to be an outstanding conference
                    > on John and Christian theology over a year from now at the
                    > University of St. Andrews on the following website:
                    >
                    > http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/academic/divinity/john_2.html
                    >
                    > Richard Bauckham will be posting further information as it emerges,
                    > but I thought some of you might be interested in planning ahead for
                    > travel plans and that some might even want to consider proposing
                    > shorter papers.
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