Re: [John_Lit] Mark based on "John" (pre-redactional)
- In a message dated 4/2/2002 9:32:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<< Answer to Leonard Maluf
Your interpretation is very interesting, but you need for it
auxiliary hypotheses not based in the text itself. You think that
Matthew was the only predecessor of Luke. >>
My hypothesis is that Matt was the only predecessor of Luke of which we know,
and a sufficient one to explain 9:46-48, allowing, of course, for creativity
-- which is perfectly reasonable, since if Luke did not intend to rewrite
Matt significantly there would have been no reason at all for him to write.
He was not a copyist, but a writer.
<<Then, why should Luke change a story dealing exclusively with children into
a story about Paul as sent by Christ and God? And why then should he
maintain the children-motive, which is of no use in this context. >>
To your first question I have just responded: Luke's policy was, wherever
possible (i.e., wherever he could find justification for doing so from a
related passage in Matt, Paul or LXX OT), to do something really creative
with the text of Matthew. He retained the child motif, because he intended to
use it, quite cleverly, as a cryptic allusion to Paul (translating the Latin
name Paulus: hO MIKROTEROS), and also playing with the Benjamin motif in Gen
42:32, 34 (Benjamin being Paul's ancestor as in Phil 3:5). All of this in
response to Luke's reformulated version of the question that was in the
twelve disciples' minds as to "who might be greater than they"? (the correct
translation of Lk 9:46, and compare 1 Cor 15:9).
<< Even in the case "somebody smaller (mikroteros) than all of you"
might really mean Paul (like maybe the "elachistos" in the Kingdom of
God in Mt), this does not prove that Luke could have invented the
typically johannine sending-word in its full length, which Mark would
have shortened and John would have learned only from Luke.>>
My argument is not that Luke invented the sending-word, but that he got it
from Matt 10:40 and reapplied it, allusively, to Paul. This is just one of
many proofs that the Patristic understanding of Luke as the gospel of Paul
has some real value to it. For Luke's audience it was important that the very
strongly legitimating statement (he who receives you receives me, etc.) have
a direct relevance to the one they should be listening to in order to be
obedient to God. For this audience it could have no more than an historical
curiosity that the words had originally been addressed by Jesus to the 12, as
they are in Matt 10.
<<And why should Mark, writing after Mt and Lk and pushing Peter, the
and the Twelfe, speak then of a concurrence among the Twelfe? This
issue must have been outdated for long time. Howsoever, you need a
lot of explanations, wheras the sequence of Jn, Mk, Mt and Lk can be
derived rather evidently from the text alone.>>
You exaggerate the problems. Mark's is a diplomatic text, simply attempting
to recover, where possible, the meanings of both Matt and Lk. Thus, e.g., the
question as Mark formulates it - TIS MEIZWN - is left absolute so as to cover
the possible meanings of both Matt 18:1 and Lk 9:46. But then Mark gets into
trouble when he follows Luke more closely in 9:37 without realizing why Luke
had transported the whole sending-formula from Matt 10:40 into this context
(namely, Luke's intended cryptic allusion to Paul as an apostle sent by Jesus
and representing him and God).
My hypothesis has thus explained:
1. Why, in 18:1-5, Matthew has no equivalent to Lk 9:48 and Mk 9:37, with the
full sending-formula, including a reference to receiving God. In Matt, 18:5
has nothing to do with the reception given an apostle. It simply says that to
welcome a little one in the Christian community is to welcome Christ (a good
Matthean idea: cf. Matt 25:40).
2. But because of the verbal and conceptual link between this text (Matt
18:5) and Matt 10:40 (they both speak of receiving Jesus in the act of
receiving someone else) Luke feels authorized to rewrite the story to make it
allude to Paul the apostle, the least of the apostles and the little one who
is great (in response to a question in the disciples' minds: "who might be
greater than they [i.e., the Twelve]"?).
3. Then Mark comes along. His text shows clear traces of both of the
different agendas of Matt's and Lk's text. Read it carefully to see this in
detail. It is very evident and makes extremely good sense of the hypothesized
sequence of Gospel composition.
4. John's text can easily be explained as based on Matt 10:40, or on the
tradition that lies behind this text. It is always very difficult to
demonstrate to everyone's satisfaction that John is using the Synoptics
because he does so in a manner that is even freer than the way in which Luke
uses Matt. It is my hunch that John does know the Synoptic texts, but it can
never be more than a hunch, I guess.
<< But what is about the next text I proposed for discussion:
Joh 12,25 und Mk 8,35>>
I haven't examined this example yet, and would prefer to treat it in a
- Thomas W Butler wrote:> If this story were made up out of whole cloth, it
> When I say that a passage of scripture in the 4G is a midrashDisciplined or not, either John recounted the raising of Lazarus as an event,
> commentary, I am NOT suggesting that it was "made up out of
> whole cloth." As I indicated in a previous post, the midrash
> process is very disciplined.
or John was inspired by Luke 16, performed some sort of literary magic on it
(quite unparalleled that I can see from testable examples), then John
invented the story out of whole cloth. When someone writes a fairy tale,
they follow an established form. The discipline of doing so does not make
Cinderella an historical account.
> It requires a deep knowledge andNo, I am not overlooking the genre of midrash. Let's try this one more time
> understanding of the language used in the source material (in
> this case the language of the parable in Luke) as well as the
> issues being presented to generate faith in Jesus. This is no
> small challenge.
> Even within tradition, you are overlooking the genre of midrash.
and then I'm done with this discussion. "Midrash" as used in ancient
literature referred to a rabbinic method of interpretation. This method was
delineated and used in rabbinic literature, from after 200 A.D. Its roots
might have come from an earlier period, but we have no documentation of
that. Some of its principles may have been used at an earlier stage, but we
have no explicit record or demonstration or assertion of that from texts of
What we have instead is a technical term, which applies to a form of
interpretation which seems to take some liberties with the text, and
therefore, has been appropriated by scholars to refer to any number of
phenomena, as though simply giving it that label a) tells us something
meaningful (which it doesn't -- any more than saying "this is an articular
infinitive") and b) arguing based on a that you can then say "this text means
something totally different than what it appears or has a totally different
origin than you expect because it owes its existence to a technique only
documented 200 years later". The way midrash is being used by some
participants in this discussion reminds me of the article title, "Q is
whatever you make it" (or similar wording). It is methodologically improper,
IMO, to take a term from 200 A.D., which has a very specific meaning, and,
ignoring that definition, apply it to works of an earlier period, while
failing to define it. If one won't define pizza enough to make it distinct
from something else, then there's no reason to not call a Big Mac a pizza.
If you define pizza strictly enough, however, that you can actually say,
"This qualifies as a pizza but this does not," then "pizza" is a useful
term. I've referred to a work which critiques the application of the term
midrash to phenomena which came into being before the rabbis defined midrash
or its approach. If you wish to grab that label and slap it on whatever you
wish, I cannot stop you. I, however, prefer a non-Humpty Dumpty approach to
language. Words have specific referents. They don't mean anything you'd like
them to mean.
I ask again then: if John used some technique to turn, say, the parable
of Luke 16 into a very different story for very different purposes, none of
which can be an historical account, what genre does the FG belong to? You
only get three choices. It's not methodologically valid to say "First
century people in the Med knew three genres. I'm going to think outside the
box, and invent another and impose it upon a First century document."
There was NO genre of midrash in John's day. He could not apply it because
it did not exist. Pesher as an approach existed but not midrash because
midrash should refer only to the procedure which its practitioners referred
to by that name, not any old phenomenon from earlier days. Why is it such a
problem to give up an anachronistic label?
>I never denied this. I denied that anyone in John's day used a technique
> Simply because the process was not codified until around the
> second century does not mean that the method was not used
> in the first century or even earlier. To suggest that it was a
> rabbinical method, so it should not be considered as a method
> used in Christian circles ignores the fact that the first Christians
> were all children of Israel. The Gospel of John provides ample
> evidence that great Jewish teachers like Nicodemus were
> disciples of Jesus. Of course pedagogical techniques used in
> rabbinical schools would have been used in early Christian
> schools! Why wouldn't they be used?
which, so far as we can tell from known documents, did not exist as a
technique in John's day. It's like telling me that alchemists measured gram
atoms, when they didn't even know for sure that atoms existed. Or, it's like
calling Apuleius sci-fi, even though that genre didn't exist.
>That only means the tools are inappropriate, in part because they depend on a
> > John is absolutely clearly not a romance (and those who claim
> > that any Gospel is a Greek romance have obviously not read
> > closely enough a Greek romance).
> > Therefore, its genre must be one in which we ought to take the
> > narrative as intending to talk about actual events, regardless of
> > how they are presented or reported.
> Here I suspect that you and I have different starting places. I am
> absolutely convinced that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel were
> presenting THE TRUTH. In the first century mind set, that does
> not mean that they were attempting to write a history of Jesus.
> Modern scholars have been frustrated time and again when they
> have attempted to use the tools of historical criticism developed
> to study the Synoptics - on the Fourth Gospel. The results are
> very confusing and often frustrating to the scholars who try it.
flawed notion of historical research, viz., a van Rankean-Positivist
approach. First century audiences knew three genres: historia, Bioi and
romance. You don't get to choose another because you don't like those
choices. Well, I can't stop you from doing so but I can't responsibly
consider the result as having validity. What you are suggesting is that same
thing as an example of ideological criticism, reaping from the text what is
not there according a worldview that the author could not possibly have had.
>In some cases this is true, but it does not fit the case of Josephus, the
> A history in the first century was an account written by servants
> of a king or conqueror of events that detail the great victories of
> that king.
author of LAB, other Hellenistic Jewish historiographers, nor even, so far as
I can see, the advice of either Lucian or Dionysius of Halicarnassus. This
goes back to my point above. Hellenistic historiogrpahy's definitions should
be gained from pieces of the period, not imposed from without.
> The TRUTH about Jesus does not fit such an objectiveThis seems contradictory to me. If it is not an historical account of a
> exactly. In fact, such truth cannot be conveyed using such a form.
> There is a need to reflect in greater depth about the meaning of
> the resurrection than a mere history could achieve.
resurrection, then surely it does not recount a real resurrection and there
is nothing "true" about resurrection reflected by it to talk about. You are
certainly permitted to call John's Gospel fiction, and say that John used
fiction to present "truth". That's a theoretical possibility. IN that case,
however, we are free to completely ignore any questions regarding what
happened because John was not thing to ell us what happened. He's using the
license granted by "midrash" to crate any old thing that will suit his
purposes for "truth" telling. That sure makes the prologue easier to deal
with. We don't have to interpret it. We just have to decide what all that
midrash is trying to tell us truth-wise. If midrash is what I want to make
it, then the entire Gospel can be a midrash. Since you won't define this
term precisely, anything fits it.
>No. What I assume is that the term midrash is being completely misapplied
> I suspect that when you see the word "midrash commentary"
> you are assuming that someone has made up a story and tried
> to pass off that story as history. That is not what I am saying
> at all. Using my theory I can say that Lazarus is not a historical
> person without suggesting that the story of the raising of Lazarus
> is fiction. For those two sentences to be true, we as scholars
> must be able to look for truth in a category other than history.
to refer to some other phenomena which no rabbi would have understood as
valid hermeneutically as an example of midrash. Choose a different term.
Call it a fable. Call it a parable. Call it whatever you want to call it,
but don't overload one term with a specific referent for something unrelated.