Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Can we prove that Jesus was NOT a Samaritan?

Expand Messages
  • historynow2002
    John, Nice to hear from you again. I hope you are not implying that I changed my profile name in order to pretend to be another person. My specific interests
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 8, 2002
      John,

      Nice to hear from you again.

      I hope you are not implying that I changed my profile
      name in order to pretend to be another person. My
      specific interests and the way I write about them,
      and the fact I always sign my name, should be quite
      sufficient for me to be identifiable no matter where
      I go.

      Perhaps you can offer some opinions as to why the idea
      that Samaritan Christians might have been more important
      to the early Church than "diaspora Jews"? Why is this
      such a futile topic to discuss? Is it because there is
      zero information on the problem? Or is it because it is
      too "different" an idea for people to get used to?

      In the Gospel of John we have all sorts of strange clues
      that should go quite a way to at least make us curious:

      1) A barrage of references to "the Jews". While the
      "old saw" says this is because the early converts and the
      2nd generation of Christians didn't see themselves as
      Jews.... imagine how much MORE true this would be for
      people who converted from Samaritan families. The
      Samaritans have hated the Jews since the time of Ezra.
      This could very well be the "ground zero" for centuries
      of anti-semitism reaching right to this very day.

      2) Virtually the oldest continuously existing
      anti-jewish culture was and still is the Samaritans.
      They claim (and with convincing evidence) that the
      Jews "edited" the Bible. Wow.... is that such an
      unusual charge to the mind of the modern historian?
      The Samaritans would be the perfect audience to
      refer to "those Jews".

      3) In John we have the offhand comment that Jesus
      was a Samaritan. And Jesus doesn't respond to it, but
      defends against another charge. Why? Because to him it
      is no sin. He is a Samaritan convert to Judaism, or he
      is descended from a family of such converts. We
      know the Hasmoneans performed forced conversions in
      Gallilee.

      4) Could the parable of the Good Samaritan be, in fact,
      a story about Jesus himself? The Samaritan worries NOT
      about purity rules, and other strict taboos. In fact,
      the Samaritan has a downright Greek/modern view of what
      is noble and what is right.

      5) Jesus makes a special effort to visit and/or convert
      Samaritans to his cause.

      6) Combine all of this GJohn content with references in
      Acts where it is said that the Jerusalem church spread
      out into surrounding areas, INCLUDING Samaria, and we
      have a pretty amazing network of facts that suggest
      Samaritan converts to Christianity were an important
      minority in the early church years before Paul started
      recruiting gentiles.

      And yet, John, you speak as though it is foolhardy to
      suggest this significant element within the early church
      could have had a special term OTHER than the word "Samaritan".

      How about let's put the shoe on the other foot. The Gospel
      of John practically TELLS us that Jesus was a Samaritan.
      How well would you do to prove that he was NOT one?

      I'm very interested to read how you would respond to this.

      Kind regards,

      George
    • John E Staton
      George wrote: There is also the little appreciated fact the Samaritans had their own sectarian conflicts. Some Samaritans were VERY zealous in their religion
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 8, 2002
        George wrote:
        There is also the little appreciated fact the Samaritans
        had their own sectarian conflicts. Some Samaritans were
        VERY zealous in their religion and/or zealous in their
        opposition to the Jerusalem Temple.

        And other Samaritans were less so.

        It would make for an interesting 4-way analysis, where
        someone tested each Samaritan sect (including the Dositheans)
        for the degree of "integration" into the Post-Alexandrian
        Hellenistic world.

        Am I the only one getting a feeling of deja-vu in this correspondence, or is
        it that I experienced this argument on the Gospel of John list, where I am
        also a member. As I remember it, George, you convinced very few last time,
        and I suspect you will convince very few this time, despite a change in
        E-mail address.

        JOHN E STATON
        www.jestaton.org
        jestaton@...





        ________________________________________________________________________
        ________________________________________________________________________



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote: ... George, What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too simplistic and one-sided. ... Regards, Yuri.
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
          On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

          ...

          > The Samaritans have hated the Jews since the time of Ezra.

          George,

          What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too simplistic
          and one-sided.

          > This could very well be the "ground zero" for centuries of
          > anti-semitism reaching right to this very day.

          Regards,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
        • historynow2002
          Yuri, I didn t realize there would be any doubts about the rivalry between Samaritans and Jews. JOSEPHUS: Josephus discusses AT LEGNTH about the rivarly
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
            Yuri,

            I didn't realize there would be any doubts about the
            rivalry between Samaritans and Jews.

            JOSEPHUS:
            Josephus discusses AT LEGNTH about the rivarly between
            these two groups in Egypt. The rivalry was so intense,
            whether truthfully described or not, he tells of 2 Samaritans
            in a debate against 2 Jews. And the losing side has to DIE.

            This is not a casual "my dad can beat up your dad" kind of
            dispute. This is a life or death struggle between the
            Samaritans and the Jews.

            HISTORY:
            And when the Hasmoneans destroy the Samaritan temple,
            this is not exactly a form of endearment.

            NEW TESTAMENT:
            And finally, the New Testament makes it quite clear that
            if Jews would be more willing to walk AROUND Samaria to get
            to Galilee instead of through it, then there is obviously
            some major hostilities bubbling just below the level of
            outright war.

            You write:
            > What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
            simplistic and one-sided."

            What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?

            I am eager to hear what you have to say.

            George
          • Yuri Kuchinsky
            ... George, As posted to this group on Jul 17, 2001, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1849 Here s the article by Grabbe that can be
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
              On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

              > You write:
              > > What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
              > > simplistic and one-sided."
              >
              > What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?
              >
              > I am eager to hear what you have to say.

              George,

              As posted to this group on Jul 17, 2001,

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1849

              Here's the article by Grabbe that can be read on the Web,

              ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/lgsamar

              I must say that I like his approach. This sure seems like objective
              scholarship to me. He's very careful to state how much in this area is
              still unknown. Also he stresses that the schism between the Jews and
              Samaritans probably wasn't so severe, and didn't take place until much
              later than most people think.

              [end quote]

              Yours,

              Yuri.

              Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

              What are the things of long ago? Tell us, that we may
              reflect on them, and know their outcome; or declare
              to us the things to come -=O=- Isaiah 41:22
            • historynow2002
              John, The very same thing can be said about the people who discuss was Jesus a man, a divine being, or both. In debating class, if you cannot comprehend BOTH
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
                John,

                The very same thing can be said about the people
                who discuss was Jesus a man, a divine being, or
                both.

                In debating class, if you cannot comprehend BOTH
                sides of the dispute, you are a failure.

                Generations and generations of historians have said
                and repeated the same thing over and over. And now
                you say that I have to PROVE something.

                I think "discussion" is in order before I have to
                worry about PROVING something, don't you?

                George
              • historynow2002
                Yuri, I ve sent the article you suggest I read to the printer. Give me a few days to digest it. But does that mean that you dispute that the New Testament
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
                  Yuri,

                  I've sent the article you suggest I read to the printer.
                  Give me a few days to digest it.

                  But does that mean that you dispute that the New Testament
                  presentation that the Samaritans and the Jews disliked each
                  other?

                  This tangent is a little off topic, but I'm happy to discuss
                  it offlist or on it.

                  The point that I would suggest is still valid is that there
                  was a distinct difference between Samaritan converts to Christianity
                  and Jewish converts to Christianity that would have been
                  palpable even after BOTH groups had become Christian.

                  And that this "distinction" would have been the more logical
                  one to "label" than to label disaspora jews vs. non-diaspora
                  Jews.

                  George


                  --- In johannine_literature@y..., Yuri Kuchinsky <yuku@t...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, historynow2002 wrote:
                  >
                  > > You write:
                  > > > What are you basing this on? I think this view is rather too
                  > > > simplistic and one-sided."
                  > >
                  > > What do you see as something more nuanced and even-handed?
                  > >
                  > > I am eager to hear what you have to say.
                  >
                  > George,
                  >
                  > As posted to this group on Jul 17, 2001,
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/message/1849
                  >
                  > Here's the article by Grabbe that can be read on the Web,
                  >
                  > ftp://ftp.lehigh.edu/pub/listserv/ioudaios-l/Articles/lgsamar
                  >
                  > I must say that I like his approach. This sure seems like objective
                  > scholarship to me. He's very careful to state how much in this area
                  is
                  > still unknown. Also he stresses that the schism between the Jews and
                  > Samaritans probably wasn't so severe, and didn't take place until
                  much
                  > later than most people think.
                  >
                  > [end quote]
                  >
                  > Yours,
                  >
                  > Yuri.
                  >
                  > Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
                  >
                  > What are the things of long ago? Tell us, that we may
                  > reflect on them, and know their outcome; or declare
                  > to us the things to come -=O=- Isaiah 41:22
                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: historynow2002 To: Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:57 PM Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "historynow2002" <historynow2002@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:57 PM
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Samaritan Anti-Semitism

                    This thread, off-topic and, being based on question begging assumptions and
                    untestable, is officially closed.

                    Jack Kilmon
                    Moderator
                  • John E Staton
                    George, You don t get it, do you? You re the guy with the theory, its you that has to prove it. All I am saying (and I hear people much better qualified than
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 9, 2002
                      George,
                      You don't get it, do you? You're the guy with the theory, its you
                      that has to prove it. All I am saying (and I hear people much better
                      qualified than me saying it, too) is that you haven't proved it yet. You
                      need some solid evidence and more convincing arguments.

                      JOHN E STATON
                      www.jestaton.org
                      jestaton@...
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.