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Re: [John_Lit] GJohn - Written to the Samaritan Dositheans?

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  • historynow2002
    Yuri, You ask: What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
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      Yuri,

      You ask:

      " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"


      Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
      someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
      there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
      thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
      considered Judah-ites.

      We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
      in Ezra:

      Ezr 2:43
      The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
      children of Hasupha, the children of
      Tabbaoth,

      These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
      And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
      descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
      or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
      their lives).

      And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
      JUDAH with ISRAEL:

      Ezr 2:70
      So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
      the people, and the singers, and the porters,
      and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
      Israel in their cities.

      This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
      who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
      remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.

      And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
      that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
      than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:

      Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
      of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
      the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
      12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
      that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
      NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
      to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
      ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.

      And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
      with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.

      Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
      attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
      of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

      You also ask:

      "... whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you
      referring to?"

      Frankly, I think ALL of the uses of HELLENE or HELLENISTIC
      Jew by any of the N.T. writers is being used in this sense.
      Since we KNOW there was a fairly large population of "Samaritans"
      swirling about.... what term do we RESERVE for these Hebrew
      if we assign the term "Hellene" to JUDAH-ites of the Diaspora?
      A close analysis of the use of this and related terms would
      indicate people who are RELIGIOUSLY "Jewish", but not ETHNICALLY
      "Jewish".

      George
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Thanks to all who responded. It s good to see that an interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts exists and that some people are working on this. I
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
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        Thanks to all who responded. It's good to see that an
        interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts
        exists and that some people are working on this. I
        hope that some of this work becomes public at some
        point.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Dear George, I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as Israelite . Judah is only one
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 29, 2002
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          On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

          > Yuri,
          >
          > You ask:
          >
          > " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"
          >
          >
          > Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
          > someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
          > there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
          > thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
          > considered Judah-ites.
          >
          > We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
          > in Ezra:
          >
          > Ezr 2:43
          > The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
          > children of Hasupha, the children of
          > Tabbaoth,
          >
          > These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
          > And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
          > descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
          > or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
          > their lives).
          >
          > And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
          > JUDAH with ISRAEL:
          >
          > Ezr 2:70
          > So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
          > the people, and the singers, and the porters,
          > and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
          > Israel in their cities.
          >
          > This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
          > who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
          > remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.
          >
          > And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
          > that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
          > than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:
          >
          > Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
          > of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
          > the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
          > 12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
          > that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
          > NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
          > to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
          > ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.
          >
          > And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
          > with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.
          >
          > Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
          > attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
          > of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

          Dear George,

          I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of
          Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as "Israelite". Judah is only one
          tribe out of the 12, but I thought this was already well known...

          I think "Israelite" is the most inclusive term for all those who belonged
          to the 12 tribes of Israel. But "Hebrew" and "Jew" are also pretty similar
          terms, and can also be used inclusively for those belonging to the 12
          tribes. "Samaritans" also have been known to refer to themselves as
          "Jews".

          It's clear that the Gospels of John and of Luke are more oriented towards
          the northern tribes, rather than towards Judah and Jerusalem. So in this,
          they seem to preserve the earlier tradition going back to Jesus and John
          the Baptist, who were both Northerners.

          We may note that GJohn never says anything about Bethlehem as the
          birthplace of Jesus -- again preserving the earliest tradition.

          Best,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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