Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] GJohn - Written to the Samaritan Dositheans?

Expand Messages
  • Yuri Kuchinsky
    ... George, What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Also, whose use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew are you referring to? Best, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

      > I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in
      > THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this
      > to say in connection with the Gospel of John:
      >
      > Page 34
      > "In New Testament times the Samaritans shared practices
      > and beliefs with both heterodox and orthodox sects of
      > Judaism. With the Qumran sectarians they shared a
      > renunciation of the Jerusalem Temple, emphasis on the
      > significance of Moses, a messianic interpretion of Deut.
      > 18:18, and usage of the term "the sons of light". Indeed
      > there were apparent schisms within the Samaritan community
      > itself. Simon Magus (Acts 8:9ff) may have been the leader
      > of the Dositheans, an unorthodox, possibly gnostic-influenced,
      > Samaritan group."
      >
      > "Some New Testament books, particularly the Gospel of
      > John, appear to address a Samaritan audience. Some examples
      > are the attention to the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, the
      > reference to "other sheep" in 10:16, and the use of the
      > important Samaritan imagery of light. Some argue that the
      > speech in Acts 7 betrays Stephen's Samaritan origins since
      > he, like the Samaritans, challenges the Jerusalem Temple
      > and priesthood and refers to the key Samaritan biblical
      > verse, Deut. 18:18."
      >
      > [END OF CLIP]
      >
      > And of course this article doesn't even mention the
      > reference to Jesus himself as being a samaritan. This
      > might explain the truer use of the term Hellene or
      > Hellenistic Jew... those non-Jewish Hebrews which
      > grew up oriented to the Temple in Jerusalem instead of
      > to the one in Shechem.
      >
      > Thoughts or comments?

      George,

      What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?

      Also, whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you referring
      to?

      Best,

      Yuri.

      Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

      I doubt, therefore I might be.
    • historynow2002
      Yuri, You ask: What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Yuri,

        You ask:

        " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"


        Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
        someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
        there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
        thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
        considered Judah-ites.

        We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
        in Ezra:

        Ezr 2:43
        The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
        children of Hasupha, the children of
        Tabbaoth,

        These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
        And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
        descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
        or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
        their lives).

        And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
        JUDAH with ISRAEL:

        Ezr 2:70
        So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
        the people, and the singers, and the porters,
        and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
        Israel in their cities.

        This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
        who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
        remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.

        And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
        that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
        than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:

        Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
        of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
        the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
        12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
        that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
        NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
        to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
        ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.

        And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
        with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.

        Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
        attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
        of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

        You also ask:

        "... whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you
        referring to?"

        Frankly, I think ALL of the uses of HELLENE or HELLENISTIC
        Jew by any of the N.T. writers is being used in this sense.
        Since we KNOW there was a fairly large population of "Samaritans"
        swirling about.... what term do we RESERVE for these Hebrew
        if we assign the term "Hellene" to JUDAH-ites of the Diaspora?
        A close analysis of the use of this and related terms would
        indicate people who are RELIGIOUSLY "Jewish", but not ETHNICALLY
        "Jewish".

        George
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Thanks to all who responded. It s good to see that an interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts exists and that some people are working on this. I
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks to all who responded. It's good to see that an
          interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts
          exists and that some people are working on this. I
          hope that some of this work becomes public at some
          point.

          Jeffery Hodges

          =====
          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
          447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
          Yangsandong 411
          South Korea

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
          http://auctions.yahoo.com
        • Yuri Kuchinsky
          ... Dear George, I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as Israelite . Judah is only one
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 29, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

            > Yuri,
            >
            > You ask:
            >
            > " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"
            >
            >
            > Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
            > someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
            > there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
            > thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
            > considered Judah-ites.
            >
            > We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
            > in Ezra:
            >
            > Ezr 2:43
            > The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
            > children of Hasupha, the children of
            > Tabbaoth,
            >
            > These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
            > And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
            > descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
            > or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
            > their lives).
            >
            > And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
            > JUDAH with ISRAEL:
            >
            > Ezr 2:70
            > So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
            > the people, and the singers, and the porters,
            > and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
            > Israel in their cities.
            >
            > This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
            > who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
            > remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.
            >
            > And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
            > that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
            > than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:
            >
            > Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
            > of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
            > the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
            > 12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
            > that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
            > NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
            > to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
            > ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.
            >
            > And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
            > with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.
            >
            > Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
            > attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
            > of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

            Dear George,

            I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of
            Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as "Israelite". Judah is only one
            tribe out of the 12, but I thought this was already well known...

            I think "Israelite" is the most inclusive term for all those who belonged
            to the 12 tribes of Israel. But "Hebrew" and "Jew" are also pretty similar
            terms, and can also be used inclusively for those belonging to the 12
            tribes. "Samaritans" also have been known to refer to themselves as
            "Jews".

            It's clear that the Gospels of John and of Luke are more oriented towards
            the northern tribes, rather than towards Judah and Jerusalem. So in this,
            they seem to preserve the earlier tradition going back to Jesus and John
            the Baptist, who were both Northerners.

            We may note that GJohn never says anything about Bethlehem as the
            birthplace of Jesus -- again preserving the earliest tradition.

            Best,

            Yuri.

            Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

            The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
            equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.