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Re(2): [John_Lit] Statistical Analyses of John?

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  • Paul Anderson
    ... Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed s _Old Testament Quotations in the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 25, 2002
      johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
      >Jeffery,
      > May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a
      >word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation
      >between the gospel and the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch.
      >I have found some hints that the extensive use of signs in the FG
      >depends upon the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch as a
      >cipher. Paul, do any of the sources you suggested address this
      >question? Do you or does anyone else on the list know of such
      >a study?
      >
      >Yours in Christ's service,
      >Tom Butler

      Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant
      monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed's _Old Testament Quotations in
      the Gospel of John_ and B. Noack's _Zur johanneischen Tradition_. In
      addition, treatments by Barrett and Brown in their commentary
      introductions are excellent on the matter. They infer Septuagintal
      inclinations with a few exceptions, but few explicit citations as such.

      Paul Anderson
    • jlupia2
      ... Dear Jeffery : I have been working on a comprehensive and complete statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years which seems unending due
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
        Jeffery Hodges asked:
        > Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
        > of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
        > determine different sources based upon word
        > frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
        > style?


        Dear Jeffery :

        I have been working on a comprehensive and complete
        statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years
        which seems unending due to: new Uncial and papyri
        discoveries; and increased criteria and methods. Currently, I
        have built 234 statistical tables for the Gospel of John based on
        all known papyri, the Vulgate, and NA 27, and I am still far from
        complete. It would be nice to publish this research but I do not
        know which publisher would be interested in this area of
        research.

        Cordially,
        Joh

        John N. Lupia
        501 North Avenue B-1
        Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... George, What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Also, whose use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew are you referring to? Best, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
          On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

          > I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in
          > THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this
          > to say in connection with the Gospel of John:
          >
          > Page 34
          > "In New Testament times the Samaritans shared practices
          > and beliefs with both heterodox and orthodox sects of
          > Judaism. With the Qumran sectarians they shared a
          > renunciation of the Jerusalem Temple, emphasis on the
          > significance of Moses, a messianic interpretion of Deut.
          > 18:18, and usage of the term "the sons of light". Indeed
          > there were apparent schisms within the Samaritan community
          > itself. Simon Magus (Acts 8:9ff) may have been the leader
          > of the Dositheans, an unorthodox, possibly gnostic-influenced,
          > Samaritan group."
          >
          > "Some New Testament books, particularly the Gospel of
          > John, appear to address a Samaritan audience. Some examples
          > are the attention to the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, the
          > reference to "other sheep" in 10:16, and the use of the
          > important Samaritan imagery of light. Some argue that the
          > speech in Acts 7 betrays Stephen's Samaritan origins since
          > he, like the Samaritans, challenges the Jerusalem Temple
          > and priesthood and refers to the key Samaritan biblical
          > verse, Deut. 18:18."
          >
          > [END OF CLIP]
          >
          > And of course this article doesn't even mention the
          > reference to Jesus himself as being a samaritan. This
          > might explain the truer use of the term Hellene or
          > Hellenistic Jew... those non-Jewish Hebrews which
          > grew up oriented to the Temple in Jerusalem instead of
          > to the one in Shechem.
          >
          > Thoughts or comments?

          George,

          What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?

          Also, whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you referring
          to?

          Best,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

          I doubt, therefore I might be.
        • historynow2002
          Yuri, You ask: What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
            Yuri,

            You ask:

            " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"


            Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
            someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
            there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
            thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
            considered Judah-ites.

            We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
            in Ezra:

            Ezr 2:43
            The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
            children of Hasupha, the children of
            Tabbaoth,

            These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
            And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
            descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
            or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
            their lives).

            And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
            JUDAH with ISRAEL:

            Ezr 2:70
            So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
            the people, and the singers, and the porters,
            and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
            Israel in their cities.

            This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
            who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
            remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.

            And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
            that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
            than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:

            Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
            of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
            the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
            12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
            that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
            NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
            to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
            ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.

            And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
            with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.

            Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
            attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
            of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

            You also ask:

            "... whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you
            referring to?"

            Frankly, I think ALL of the uses of HELLENE or HELLENISTIC
            Jew by any of the N.T. writers is being used in this sense.
            Since we KNOW there was a fairly large population of "Samaritans"
            swirling about.... what term do we RESERVE for these Hebrew
            if we assign the term "Hellene" to JUDAH-ites of the Diaspora?
            A close analysis of the use of this and related terms would
            indicate people who are RELIGIOUSLY "Jewish", but not ETHNICALLY
            "Jewish".

            George
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Thanks to all who responded. It s good to see that an interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts exists and that some people are working on this. I
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
              Thanks to all who responded. It's good to see that an
              interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts
              exists and that some people are working on this. I
              hope that some of this work becomes public at some
              point.

              Jeffery Hodges

              =====
              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
              447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
              Yangsandong 411
              South Korea

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            • Yuri Kuchinsky
              ... Dear George, I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as Israelite . Judah is only one
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 29, 2002
                On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

                > Yuri,
                >
                > You ask:
                >
                > " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"
                >
                >
                > Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
                > someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
                > there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
                > thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
                > considered Judah-ites.
                >
                > We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
                > in Ezra:
                >
                > Ezr 2:43
                > The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
                > children of Hasupha, the children of
                > Tabbaoth,
                >
                > These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
                > And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
                > descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
                > or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
                > their lives).
                >
                > And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
                > JUDAH with ISRAEL:
                >
                > Ezr 2:70
                > So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
                > the people, and the singers, and the porters,
                > and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
                > Israel in their cities.
                >
                > This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
                > who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
                > remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.
                >
                > And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
                > that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
                > than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:
                >
                > Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
                > of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
                > the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
                > 12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
                > that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
                > NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
                > to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
                > ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.
                >
                > And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
                > with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.
                >
                > Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
                > attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
                > of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

                Dear George,

                I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of
                Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as "Israelite". Judah is only one
                tribe out of the 12, but I thought this was already well known...

                I think "Israelite" is the most inclusive term for all those who belonged
                to the 12 tribes of Israel. But "Hebrew" and "Jew" are also pretty similar
                terms, and can also be used inclusively for those belonging to the 12
                tribes. "Samaritans" also have been known to refer to themselves as
                "Jews".

                It's clear that the Gospels of John and of Luke are more oriented towards
                the northern tribes, rather than towards Judah and Jerusalem. So in this,
                they seem to preserve the earlier tradition going back to Jesus and John
                the Baptist, who were both Northerners.

                We may note that GJohn never says anything about Bethlehem as the
                birthplace of Jesus -- again preserving the earliest tradition.

                Best,

                Yuri.

                Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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