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Re: [John_Lit] Statistical Analyses of John?

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  • Thomas W Butler
    Jeffery, May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation between the gospel and the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 24, 2002
      Jeffery,
      May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a
      word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation
      between the gospel and the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch.
      I have found some hints that the extensive use of signs in the FG
      depends upon the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch as a
      cipher. Paul, do any of the sources you suggested address this
      question? Do you or does anyone else on the list know of such
      a study?

      Yours in Christ's service,
      Tom Butler

      On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:33:20 -0800 (PST) Horace Jeffery Hodges
      <jefferyhodges@...> writes:
      > There is an interesting if recondite discussion
      > currently in progress on the synoptic literature
      > listserve about a statistical analysis of the
      > interrelations of the synoptic gospels.
      >
      > Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
      > of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
      > determine different sources based upon word
      > frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
      > style?
      >
      > Or is this approach totally wrongheaded for John?
      >
      > Jeffery Hodges
      >
      > =====
      > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      > Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      > 447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
      > Yangsandong 411
      > South Korea
      >
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    • Wieland Willker
      I have done a bit of this. Counted words and grammatical things. Did a Principal Component Analysis. The outcome is pretty much what we already know: On the
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 25, 2002
        I have done a bit of this. Counted words and grammatical things. Did a Principal Component
        Analysis. The outcome is pretty much what we already know:
        On the one end are chapters 14-17, clearly separated.
        On the other end is chapter 2, especially verses 1-12 being very different from the rest.
        Interestingly next to ch. 2 are ch. 19-20.
        Ch. 21 does not stand out in any significant way.

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        ---------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      • Paul Anderson
        ... Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed s _Old Testament Quotations in the
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 25, 2002
          johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
          >Jeffery,
          > May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a
          >word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation
          >between the gospel and the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch.
          >I have found some hints that the extensive use of signs in the FG
          >depends upon the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch as a
          >cipher. Paul, do any of the sources you suggested address this
          >question? Do you or does anyone else on the list know of such
          >a study?
          >
          >Yours in Christ's service,
          >Tom Butler

          Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant
          monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed's _Old Testament Quotations in
          the Gospel of John_ and B. Noack's _Zur johanneischen Tradition_. In
          addition, treatments by Barrett and Brown in their commentary
          introductions are excellent on the matter. They infer Septuagintal
          inclinations with a few exceptions, but few explicit citations as such.

          Paul Anderson
        • jlupia2
          ... Dear Jeffery : I have been working on a comprehensive and complete statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years which seems unending due
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
            Jeffery Hodges asked:
            > Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
            > of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
            > determine different sources based upon word
            > frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
            > style?


            Dear Jeffery :

            I have been working on a comprehensive and complete
            statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years
            which seems unending due to: new Uncial and papyri
            discoveries; and increased criteria and methods. Currently, I
            have built 234 statistical tables for the Gospel of John based on
            all known papyri, the Vulgate, and NA 27, and I am still far from
            complete. It would be nice to publish this research but I do not
            know which publisher would be interested in this area of
            research.

            Cordially,
            Joh

            John N. Lupia
            501 North Avenue B-1
            Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
          • Yuri Kuchinsky
            ... George, What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Also, whose use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew are you referring to? Best, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
              On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

              > I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in
              > THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this
              > to say in connection with the Gospel of John:
              >
              > Page 34
              > "In New Testament times the Samaritans shared practices
              > and beliefs with both heterodox and orthodox sects of
              > Judaism. With the Qumran sectarians they shared a
              > renunciation of the Jerusalem Temple, emphasis on the
              > significance of Moses, a messianic interpretion of Deut.
              > 18:18, and usage of the term "the sons of light". Indeed
              > there were apparent schisms within the Samaritan community
              > itself. Simon Magus (Acts 8:9ff) may have been the leader
              > of the Dositheans, an unorthodox, possibly gnostic-influenced,
              > Samaritan group."
              >
              > "Some New Testament books, particularly the Gospel of
              > John, appear to address a Samaritan audience. Some examples
              > are the attention to the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, the
              > reference to "other sheep" in 10:16, and the use of the
              > important Samaritan imagery of light. Some argue that the
              > speech in Acts 7 betrays Stephen's Samaritan origins since
              > he, like the Samaritans, challenges the Jerusalem Temple
              > and priesthood and refers to the key Samaritan biblical
              > verse, Deut. 18:18."
              >
              > [END OF CLIP]
              >
              > And of course this article doesn't even mention the
              > reference to Jesus himself as being a samaritan. This
              > might explain the truer use of the term Hellene or
              > Hellenistic Jew... those non-Jewish Hebrews which
              > grew up oriented to the Temple in Jerusalem instead of
              > to the one in Shechem.
              >
              > Thoughts or comments?

              George,

              What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?

              Also, whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you referring
              to?

              Best,

              Yuri.

              Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

              I doubt, therefore I might be.
            • historynow2002
              Yuri, You ask: What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
                Yuri,

                You ask:

                " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"


                Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
                someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
                there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
                thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
                considered Judah-ites.

                We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
                in Ezra:

                Ezr 2:43
                The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
                children of Hasupha, the children of
                Tabbaoth,

                These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
                And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
                descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
                or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
                their lives).

                And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
                JUDAH with ISRAEL:

                Ezr 2:70
                So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
                the people, and the singers, and the porters,
                and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
                Israel in their cities.

                This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
                who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
                remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.

                And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
                that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
                than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:

                Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
                of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
                the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
                12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
                that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
                NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
                to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
                ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.

                And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
                with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.

                Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
                attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
                of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

                You also ask:

                "... whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you
                referring to?"

                Frankly, I think ALL of the uses of HELLENE or HELLENISTIC
                Jew by any of the N.T. writers is being used in this sense.
                Since we KNOW there was a fairly large population of "Samaritans"
                swirling about.... what term do we RESERVE for these Hebrew
                if we assign the term "Hellene" to JUDAH-ites of the Diaspora?
                A close analysis of the use of this and related terms would
                indicate people who are RELIGIOUSLY "Jewish", but not ETHNICALLY
                "Jewish".

                George
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Thanks to all who responded. It s good to see that an interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts exists and that some people are working on this. I
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
                  Thanks to all who responded. It's good to see that an
                  interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts
                  exists and that some people are working on this. I
                  hope that some of this work becomes public at some
                  point.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  =====
                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                  447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                  Yangsandong 411
                  South Korea

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
                  http://auctions.yahoo.com
                • Yuri Kuchinsky
                  ... Dear George, I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as Israelite . Judah is only one
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 29, 2002
                    On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

                    > Yuri,
                    >
                    > You ask:
                    >
                    > " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"
                    >
                    >
                    > Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
                    > someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
                    > there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
                    > thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
                    > considered Judah-ites.
                    >
                    > We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
                    > in Ezra:
                    >
                    > Ezr 2:43
                    > The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
                    > children of Hasupha, the children of
                    > Tabbaoth,
                    >
                    > These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
                    > And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
                    > descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
                    > or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
                    > their lives).
                    >
                    > And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
                    > JUDAH with ISRAEL:
                    >
                    > Ezr 2:70
                    > So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
                    > the people, and the singers, and the porters,
                    > and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
                    > Israel in their cities.
                    >
                    > This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
                    > who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
                    > remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.
                    >
                    > And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
                    > that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
                    > than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:
                    >
                    > Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
                    > of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
                    > the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
                    > 12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
                    > that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
                    > NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
                    > to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
                    > ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.
                    >
                    > And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
                    > with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.
                    >
                    > Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
                    > attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
                    > of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

                    Dear George,

                    I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of
                    Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as "Israelite". Judah is only one
                    tribe out of the 12, but I thought this was already well known...

                    I think "Israelite" is the most inclusive term for all those who belonged
                    to the 12 tribes of Israel. But "Hebrew" and "Jew" are also pretty similar
                    terms, and can also be used inclusively for those belonging to the 12
                    tribes. "Samaritans" also have been known to refer to themselves as
                    "Jews".

                    It's clear that the Gospels of John and of Luke are more oriented towards
                    the northern tribes, rather than towards Judah and Jerusalem. So in this,
                    they seem to preserve the earlier tradition going back to Jesus and John
                    the Baptist, who were both Northerners.

                    We may note that GJohn never says anything about Bethlehem as the
                    birthplace of Jesus -- again preserving the earliest tradition.

                    Best,

                    Yuri.

                    Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                    The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                    equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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