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GJohn - Written to the Samaritan Dositheans?

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  • historynow2002
    I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this to say in connection with the Gospel of John: Page 34
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 23, 2002
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      I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in
      THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this
      to say in connection with the Gospel of John:

      Page 34
      "In New Testament times the Samaritans shared practices
      and beliefs with both heterodox and orthodox sects of
      Judaism. With the Qumran sectarians they shared a
      renunciation of the Jerusalem Temple, emphasis on the
      significance of Moses, a messianic interpretion of Deut.
      18:18, and usage of the term "the sons of light". Indeed
      there were apparent schisms within the Samaritan community
      itself. Simon Magus (Acts 8:9ff) may have been the leader
      of the Dositheans, an unorthodox, possibly gnostic-influenced,
      Samaritan group."

      "Some New Testament books, particularly the Gospel of
      John, appear to address a Samaritan audience. Some examples
      are the attention to the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, the
      reference to "other sheep" in 10:16, and the use of the
      important Samaritan imagery of light. Some argue that the
      speech in Acts 7 betrays Stephen's Samaritan origins since
      he, like the Samaritans, challenges the Jerusalem Temple
      and priesthood and refers to the key Samaritan biblical
      verse, Deut. 18:18."

      [END OF CLIP]

      And of course this article doesn't even mention the
      reference to Jesus himself as being a samaritan. This
      might explain the truer use of the term Hellene or
      Hellenistic Jew... those non-Jewish Hebrews which
      grew up oriented to the Temple in Jerusalem instead of
      to the one in Shechem.

      Thoughts or comments?

      George
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      There is an interesting if recondite discussion currently in progress on the synoptic literature listserve about a statistical analysis of the interrelations
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 24, 2002
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        There is an interesting if recondite discussion
        currently in progress on the synoptic literature
        listserve about a statistical analysis of the
        interrelations of the synoptic gospels.

        Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
        of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
        determine different sources based upon word
        frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
        style?

        Or is this approach totally wrongheaded for John?

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

        __________________________________________________
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      • Paul Anderson
        ... Good question, Jeffery. With computer technology more approaches are possible. Then again, important works have engaged Bultmann s synthesis on these
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 24, 2002
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          johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
          >There is an interesting if recondite discussion
          >currently in progress on the synoptic literature
          >listserve about a statistical analysis of the
          >interrelations of the synoptic gospels.
          >
          >Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
          >of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
          >determine different sources based upon word
          >frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
          >style?
          >
          >Or is this approach totally wrongheaded for John?
          >
          >Jeffery Hodges

          Good question, Jeffery. With computer technology more approaches are
          possible. Then again, important works have engaged Bultmann's synthesis
          on these matters, and standard stylometric works include:

          E. Schweizer's _Ego Eimi_
          E. Ruckstuhl's _Die literarische Einheit des Johannesevangeliums_
          B. Noack's _Zur johanneischen Tradition_
          D. Moody Smith's _The Composition and Order of the Fourth Gospel_
          V. Poythress' 1984 stylometric articles in Novum Testamentum and
          Westminster Journal of Theology

          See also works by Fortna and van Belle, and chapters 4-7 in my Christology
          monograph.

          Paul Anderson
        • Thomas W Butler
          Jeffery, May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation between the gospel and the
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 24, 2002
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            Jeffery,
            May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a
            word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation
            between the gospel and the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch.
            I have found some hints that the extensive use of signs in the FG
            depends upon the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch as a
            cipher. Paul, do any of the sources you suggested address this
            question? Do you or does anyone else on the list know of such
            a study?

            Yours in Christ's service,
            Tom Butler

            On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 01:33:20 -0800 (PST) Horace Jeffery Hodges
            <jefferyhodges@...> writes:
            > There is an interesting if recondite discussion
            > currently in progress on the synoptic literature
            > listserve about a statistical analysis of the
            > interrelations of the synoptic gospels.
            >
            > Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
            > of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
            > determine different sources based upon word
            > frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
            > style?
            >
            > Or is this approach totally wrongheaded for John?
            >
            > Jeffery Hodges
            >
            > =====
            > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            > Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
            > 447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
            > Yangsandong 411
            > South Korea
            >
            > __________________________________________________
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          • Wieland Willker
            I have done a bit of this. Counted words and grammatical things. Did a Principal Component Analysis. The outcome is pretty much what we already know: On the
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 25, 2002
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              I have done a bit of this. Counted words and grammatical things. Did a Principal Component
              Analysis. The outcome is pretty much what we already know:
              On the one end are chapters 14-17, clearly separated.
              On the other end is chapter 2, especially verses 1-12 being very different from the rest.
              Interestingly next to ch. 2 are ch. 19-20.
              Ch. 21 does not stand out in any significant way.

              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
              ---------------
              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
              http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            • Paul Anderson
              ... Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed s _Old Testament Quotations in the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 25, 2002
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                johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
                >Jeffery,
                > May I add to your inquirey? I wonder if anyone has done a
                >word study of the FG with an eye toward showing a correlation
                >between the gospel and the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch.
                >I have found some hints that the extensive use of signs in the FG
                >depends upon the Septuagint version of the Pentateuch as a
                >cipher. Paul, do any of the sources you suggested address this
                >question? Do you or does anyone else on the list know of such
                >a study?
                >
                >Yours in Christ's service,
                >Tom Butler

                Yes, Tom, you are not alone in those inferences. Two highly significant
                monographs on the subject are Edwin Freed's _Old Testament Quotations in
                the Gospel of John_ and B. Noack's _Zur johanneischen Tradition_. In
                addition, treatments by Barrett and Brown in their commentary
                introductions are excellent on the matter. They infer Septuagintal
                inclinations with a few exceptions, but few explicit citations as such.

                Paul Anderson
              • jlupia2
                ... Dear Jeffery : I have been working on a comprehensive and complete statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years which seems unending due
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
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                  Jeffery Hodges asked:
                  > Has anyone done a sophisticated statistical analysis
                  > of different parts of John's Gospel to try to
                  > determine different sources based upon word
                  > frequencies? Or, similarly, to determine Johannine
                  > style?


                  Dear Jeffery :

                  I have been working on a comprehensive and complete
                  statistical analysis of the entire New Testament for some years
                  which seems unending due to: new Uncial and papyri
                  discoveries; and increased criteria and methods. Currently, I
                  have built 234 statistical tables for the Gospel of John based on
                  all known papyri, the Vulgate, and NA 27, and I am still far from
                  complete. It would be nice to publish this research but I do not
                  know which publisher would be interested in this area of
                  research.

                  Cordially,
                  Joh

                  John N. Lupia
                  501 North Avenue B-1
                  Elizabeth, New Jersey 07208-1731 USA
                • Yuri Kuchinsky
                  ... George, What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Also, whose use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew are you referring to? Best, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 26, 2002
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                    On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

                    > I was reading the article on the Samaritans found in
                    > THE ENCYLCOPEDIA OF RELIGION (Vol. 13). It had this
                    > to say in connection with the Gospel of John:
                    >
                    > Page 34
                    > "In New Testament times the Samaritans shared practices
                    > and beliefs with both heterodox and orthodox sects of
                    > Judaism. With the Qumran sectarians they shared a
                    > renunciation of the Jerusalem Temple, emphasis on the
                    > significance of Moses, a messianic interpretion of Deut.
                    > 18:18, and usage of the term "the sons of light". Indeed
                    > there were apparent schisms within the Samaritan community
                    > itself. Simon Magus (Acts 8:9ff) may have been the leader
                    > of the Dositheans, an unorthodox, possibly gnostic-influenced,
                    > Samaritan group."
                    >
                    > "Some New Testament books, particularly the Gospel of
                    > John, appear to address a Samaritan audience. Some examples
                    > are the attention to the Samaritan woman in chapter 4, the
                    > reference to "other sheep" in 10:16, and the use of the
                    > important Samaritan imagery of light. Some argue that the
                    > speech in Acts 7 betrays Stephen's Samaritan origins since
                    > he, like the Samaritans, challenges the Jerusalem Temple
                    > and priesthood and refers to the key Samaritan biblical
                    > verse, Deut. 18:18."
                    >
                    > [END OF CLIP]
                    >
                    > And of course this article doesn't even mention the
                    > reference to Jesus himself as being a samaritan. This
                    > might explain the truer use of the term Hellene or
                    > Hellenistic Jew... those non-Jewish Hebrews which
                    > grew up oriented to the Temple in Jerusalem instead of
                    > to the one in Shechem.
                    >
                    > Thoughts or comments?

                    George,

                    What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?

                    Also, whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you referring
                    to?

                    Best,

                    Yuri.

                    Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

                    I doubt, therefore I might be.
                  • historynow2002
                    Yuri, You ask: What is a non-Jewish Hebrew? Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
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                      Yuri,

                      You ask:

                      " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"


                      Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
                      someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
                      there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
                      thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
                      considered Judah-ites.

                      We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
                      in Ezra:

                      Ezr 2:43
                      The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
                      children of Hasupha, the children of
                      Tabbaoth,

                      These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
                      And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
                      descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
                      or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
                      their lives).

                      And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
                      JUDAH with ISRAEL:

                      Ezr 2:70
                      So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
                      the people, and the singers, and the porters,
                      and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
                      Israel in their cities.

                      This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
                      who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
                      remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.

                      And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
                      that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
                      than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:

                      Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
                      of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
                      the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
                      12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
                      that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
                      NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
                      to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
                      ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.

                      And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
                      with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.

                      Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
                      attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
                      of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

                      You also ask:

                      "... whose "use of the term Hellene or Hellenistic Jew" are you
                      referring to?"

                      Frankly, I think ALL of the uses of HELLENE or HELLENISTIC
                      Jew by any of the N.T. writers is being used in this sense.
                      Since we KNOW there was a fairly large population of "Samaritans"
                      swirling about.... what term do we RESERVE for these Hebrew
                      if we assign the term "Hellene" to JUDAH-ites of the Diaspora?
                      A close analysis of the use of this and related terms would
                      indicate people who are RELIGIOUSLY "Jewish", but not ETHNICALLY
                      "Jewish".

                      George
                    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Thanks to all who responded. It s good to see that an interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts exists and that some people are working on this. I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 27, 2002
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                        Thanks to all who responded. It's good to see that an
                        interest in statistical analysis of Johannine texts
                        exists and that some people are working on this. I
                        hope that some of this work becomes public at some
                        point.

                        Jeffery Hodges

                        =====
                        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                        Yangsandong 411
                        South Korea

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
                        http://auctions.yahoo.com
                      • Yuri Kuchinsky
                        ... Dear George, I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as Israelite . Judah is only one
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 29, 2002
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                          On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, historynow2002 wrote:

                          > Yuri,
                          >
                          > You ask:
                          >
                          > " What is a non-Jewish Hebrew?"
                          >
                          >
                          > Well, technically speaking, a Benjaminite would be considered
                          > someone who was Hebrew but not of the tribe of Judah. Of course,
                          > there might be those who argue that the Benjaminites were so
                          > thoroughly inter-married that Benjaminites would ALSO be
                          > considered Judah-ites.
                          >
                          > We get a further glimpse of Hebrew NOT of the Tribe of Judah
                          > in Ezra:
                          >
                          > Ezr 2:43
                          > The Nethinims: the children of Ziha, the
                          > children of Hasupha, the children of
                          > Tabbaoth,
                          >
                          > These Nethinims were part of the returnees to Jerusalem.
                          > And by most accounts they are made up of people who were
                          > descended of Midianites (taken prisoner in an early conflict),
                          > or Gibeonites (bondservants to the temple in exchange for
                          > their lives).
                          >
                          > And then there are comments that do not seem to equate
                          > JUDAH with ISRAEL:
                          >
                          > Ezr 2:70
                          > So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of
                          > the people, and the singers, and the porters,
                          > and the Nethinims, dwelt in their cities, and all
                          > Israel in their cities.
                          >
                          > This verse helps to differentiate the Judahites
                          > who lived in Jerusalem, with all the REST of the
                          > remnant of Israel that dwells in other cities.
                          >
                          > And of course, in the New Testament, we get hints
                          > that there was a general attitude that tribes OTHER
                          > than Judah and Benjaminin were still extant:
                          >
                          > Luke 2:36 describes the prophetess Anna as a member
                          > of the little-known Tribe of Asher. And Jesus describes
                          > the role of the 12 apostles as being judges of the
                          > 12 tribes. This in itself would go a long way to suggest
                          > that the followers of Jesus had lots of Samaritans (i.e.,
                          > NON-JUDAHITE Hebrew). For certainly it would be extraordinary
                          > to have the NORTHERN TRIBES ruled over by those of Jewish
                          > ancestry..... and even more so, vice versa.
                          >
                          > And perhaps the most INTERESTING non-Jewish ethnic group
                          > with impeccable Yahwistic credentials would be the Rechabites.
                          >
                          > Talmud tells us that the Rechabites that Saul spared from his
                          > attack on the Amalekites would eventually marry into the family
                          > of the High Priest (see Eisenman's JAMES THE BROTHER OF JESUS).

                          Dear George,

                          I think I understand what you mean now. Indeed, a member of the tribe of
                          Judah (i.e. Judean) is not the same as "Israelite". Judah is only one
                          tribe out of the 12, but I thought this was already well known...

                          I think "Israelite" is the most inclusive term for all those who belonged
                          to the 12 tribes of Israel. But "Hebrew" and "Jew" are also pretty similar
                          terms, and can also be used inclusively for those belonging to the 12
                          tribes. "Samaritans" also have been known to refer to themselves as
                          "Jews".

                          It's clear that the Gospels of John and of Luke are more oriented towards
                          the northern tribes, rather than towards Judah and Jerusalem. So in this,
                          they seem to preserve the earlier tradition going back to Jesus and John
                          the Baptist, who were both Northerners.

                          We may note that GJohn never says anything about Bethlehem as the
                          birthplace of Jesus -- again preserving the earliest tradition.

                          Best,

                          Yuri.

                          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
                          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
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