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RE: [John_Lit] Readers

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  • Staley, Jeffrey
    Just a boring question from me: Is Prince French or American? In starting this thread, I referred to him as French -- based upon the following bibliographical
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 4, 2001
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      Just a boring question from me:

      Is Prince French or American? In starting this thread,
      I referred to him as French -- based upon the
      following bibliographical entry:

      I have thought French, but I never tried to verify this.

      Jeff Staley
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal Reader/Hearer 4) Actual Reader/Hearer Are there any others? I can
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 4, 2001
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        How many readers/hearers do we have now?

        1) Narratee

        2) Implied Reader/Hearer

        3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

        4) Actual Reader/Hearer

        Are there any others? I can imagine at least one
        other. Previously, I stated that we hermeneuts are
        actual readers striving to be ideal readers, but that
        doesn't quite capture our way of reading -- if I
        understand "ideal" reader correctly. An Ideal Reader
        would follow and understand every move made by the
        writer as the writer intended it. I think that we fit
        into a different category:

        5) Critical Reader

        I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
        Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
        the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
        better. What, for example, are Freudian readings but
        an attempt to do precisely this, i.e., to understand
        the writer's meaning better than the writer did.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • Staley, Jeffrey
        Anyway, if there are phenomenological differences, then this should have implications for reader-response theory. But would it mean the deconstruction of
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 7, 2001
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          Anyway, if there are phenomenological differences,
          then this should have implications for reader-response
          theory. But would it mean the deconstruction of
          categories like "narratee"? We can still make
          distinctions among types of "hearers", can't we?
          Couldn't we have:

          Ideal Hearer

          Implied Hearer

          Addressee

          Actual Hearer

          Jeff Staley writes:

          Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be helpful when thinking
          about narrative. First, however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
          should be kept--over against the narrator. For example, in Jesus' parable
          of the Good Samaritan, Jesus is the narrator, the lawyer is clearly the
          narratee, not the ideal, implied, or actual hearer/reader. Typically, the
          narratee may or may not function as the implied/ideal hearer/reader. In
          this case, since we do not know what the lawyer's response was to the
          Jesus-narrator's "Go and do likewise," we can't be sure how the
          narratee-character functions from this text alone (we would have to look at
          all lawyers in Luke-Acts to see what particular ideological point of view is
          connected with them). Should we assume the implied/ideal hearer/reader
          should obey Jesus' words regardless of lawyer's response? Probably yes.
          Should we assume the addressees obeyed? Not at all. We don't have a clue
          as to their response. Should we assume that actual hearers/readers did/do
          obey? Depends on who you are talking about.

          Jeff Staley
        • Staley, Jeffrey
          How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal Reader/Hearer 4) Actual Reader/Hearer 5) Critical Reader/Hearer I
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 7, 2001
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            How many readers/hearers do we have now?

            1) Narratee

            2) Implied Reader/Hearer

            3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

            4) Actual Reader/Hearer

            5) Critical Reader/Hearer

            I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
            Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
            the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
            better.


            jeff Staley writes:
            these categories are better, Jeffery. I would only want to reiterate, that
            #1, #4, #5 can also be resistant "readers," that is, objecting, rejecting
            and revising in response to hearing/reading. #1 and #4 can be stupid,
            misunderstanding readers/hearers. I trust that whatever #5 means, its
            objections, critical responses are not based upon stupidity--though this
            could be a value judgment . . .

            Jeff Staley
          • Paul Anderson
            ... Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as distinctives?
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 7, 2001
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              johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
              >
              >How many readers/hearers do we have now?
              >
              >1) Narratee
              >
              >2) Implied Reader/Hearer
              >
              >3) Ideal Reader/Hearer
              >
              >4) Actual Reader/Hearer
              >
              >5) Critical Reader/Hearer
              >
              >I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
              >Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
              >the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
              >better.

              Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers
              today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as
              distinctives?

              Paul Anderson
            • Staley, Jeffrey
              Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as distinctives?
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 7, 2001
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                Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers
                today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as
                distinctives?

                Just an additional note, Paul, when I said that "I would only want to
                reiterate, that #1, #4, #5 can also be resistant "readers," that is,
                objecting, rejecting and revising in response to hearing/reading" I would
                also say that surprise, reconsideration, revising, and objecting" can also
                be part of the "implied/ideal readers/hearers" repetoire, but that
                ultimately, when the reading is done, "implied/ideal readers/hearers" are
                finally "assenting readers/hearers," whereas many real audiences and
                critical readers can finish the book and reject it; and not be transformed
                by it in the way the narrative rhetorics "demands/invites."

                Oh my, I really must get back to grading final exams!

                jeff Staley


                Jeff Staley
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Paul, did you mean to address me (Jeffery) or Jeff (Staley)? I wrote: How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 7, 2001
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                  Paul, did you mean to address me (Jeffery) or Jeff
                  (Staley)?

                  I wrote:

                  How many readers/hearers do we have now?

                  1) Narratee

                  2) Implied Reader/Hearer

                  3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

                  4) Actual Reader/Hearer

                  5) Critical Reader/Hearer

                  I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
                  Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
                  the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
                  better.

                  You (Paul) asked:

                  > Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of
                  > critical readers today. Any sense of how to find
                  > overlap between these types, as well as
                  distinctives?

                  All of them can probably be deconstructed, but that's
                  not my goal.

                  There is certainly overlap.

                  I'd say that an actual reader could be an implied
                  reader in some cases. A private letter might have only
                  one implied reader who happens to be the actual
                  reader.

                  This actual reader might also strive to be a critical
                  reader -- striving to understand things that the
                  writer himself might not have understand.

                  An ideal reader is an idealization and so would
                  (probably) never be actualized though some critical
                  readers might strive for this status.

                  Could a narratee be any of the others? If the narrator
                  happens to be the author who happens to be addressing
                  a real person who happens to be reading the text, I
                  guess that the various permutations already mentioned
                  are possible.

                  Of course, if we want to take the deconstructionist
                  turn, all readers -- like all writers -- are
                  idealizations, ideological constructs that attempt to
                  fix the flux of uncentered and multiple subjects....

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  =====
                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                  447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                  Yangsandong 411
                  South Korea

                  __________________________________________________
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                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  ... I reply: I was thinking of the Addressee as the equivalent to the Narratee in a dramatic reading of a text. But I m quite willing to stick to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 9, 2001
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                    I previously wrote:

                    > > Couldn't we have:

                    > > Ideal Hearer

                    > > Implied Hearer

                    > > Addressee

                    > > Actual Hearer

                    Jeff Staley responded:

                    > Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be
                    > helpful when thinking about narrative. First,
                    > however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
                    > should be kept--over against the narrator.

                    I reply:

                    I was thinking of the "Addressee" as the equivalent to
                    the "Narratee" in a dramatic reading of a text. But
                    I'm quite willing to stick to "Narratee".

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    =====
                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                    447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                    Yangsandong 411
                    South Korea

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
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                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    ... I reply: I was thinking of the Addressee as the equivalent to the Narratee in a dramatic reading of a text. But I m quite willing to stick to
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 9, 2001
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                      I previously wrote:

                      > > Couldn't we have:

                      > > Ideal Hearer

                      > > Implied Hearer

                      > > Addressee

                      > > Actual Hearer

                      Jeff Staley responded:

                      > Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be
                      > helpful when thinking about narrative. First,
                      > however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
                      > should be kept--over against the narrator.

                      I reply:

                      I was thinking of the "Addressee" as the equivalent to
                      the "Narratee" in a dramatic reading of a text. But
                      I'm quite willing to stick to "Narratee".

                      Jeffery Hodges

                      =====
                      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                      447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                      Yangsandong 411
                      South Korea

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      http://greetings.yahoo.com
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