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RE: [John_Lit] Readers

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  • Staley, Jeffrey
    Mark Matson wrote: Can we not imagine the implied reader to be a broader fictional construct on the part of the writer, that is a group of readers who have a
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 4 11:37 AM
      Mark Matson wrote:

      Can we not imagine the implied reader to be a
      broader fictional construct on the part of the writer, that is a group of
      readers who have a variety of views toward Jesus, perhaps even "Jews" who
      have questions about the nature of this Jesus and therefore might be
      implicated and examine their own beliefs in light of the totality of the
      story?

      Jeff Staley writes: Yes, I can imagine this, especially when looking at the
      various characters one finds in FG and the multiplicity of responses to
      Jesus (e.g., the lame man, blind man, Samaritan woman, Mary and Martha).
      These characters responses to Jesus are more fully developed than most in
      Synoptics

      Jeff
    • Staley, Jeffrey
      Just a boring question from me: Is Prince French or American? In starting this thread, I referred to him as French -- based upon the following bibliographical
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 4 11:59 AM
        Just a boring question from me:

        Is Prince French or American? In starting this thread,
        I referred to him as French -- based upon the
        following bibliographical entry:

        I have thought French, but I never tried to verify this.

        Jeff Staley
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal Reader/Hearer 4) Actual Reader/Hearer Are there any others? I can
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 4 3:32 PM
          How many readers/hearers do we have now?

          1) Narratee

          2) Implied Reader/Hearer

          3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

          4) Actual Reader/Hearer

          Are there any others? I can imagine at least one
          other. Previously, I stated that we hermeneuts are
          actual readers striving to be ideal readers, but that
          doesn't quite capture our way of reading -- if I
          understand "ideal" reader correctly. An Ideal Reader
          would follow and understand every move made by the
          writer as the writer intended it. I think that we fit
          into a different category:

          5) Critical Reader

          I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
          Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
          the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
          better. What, for example, are Freudian readings but
          an attempt to do precisely this, i.e., to understand
          the writer's meaning better than the writer did.

          Jeffery Hodges

          =====
          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
          447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
          Yangsandong 411
          South Korea

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        • Staley, Jeffrey
          Anyway, if there are phenomenological differences, then this should have implications for reader-response theory. But would it mean the deconstruction of
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 7 9:45 AM
            Anyway, if there are phenomenological differences,
            then this should have implications for reader-response
            theory. But would it mean the deconstruction of
            categories like "narratee"? We can still make
            distinctions among types of "hearers", can't we?
            Couldn't we have:

            Ideal Hearer

            Implied Hearer

            Addressee

            Actual Hearer

            Jeff Staley writes:

            Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be helpful when thinking
            about narrative. First, however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
            should be kept--over against the narrator. For example, in Jesus' parable
            of the Good Samaritan, Jesus is the narrator, the lawyer is clearly the
            narratee, not the ideal, implied, or actual hearer/reader. Typically, the
            narratee may or may not function as the implied/ideal hearer/reader. In
            this case, since we do not know what the lawyer's response was to the
            Jesus-narrator's "Go and do likewise," we can't be sure how the
            narratee-character functions from this text alone (we would have to look at
            all lawyers in Luke-Acts to see what particular ideological point of view is
            connected with them). Should we assume the implied/ideal hearer/reader
            should obey Jesus' words regardless of lawyer's response? Probably yes.
            Should we assume the addressees obeyed? Not at all. We don't have a clue
            as to their response. Should we assume that actual hearers/readers did/do
            obey? Depends on who you are talking about.

            Jeff Staley
          • Staley, Jeffrey
            How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal Reader/Hearer 4) Actual Reader/Hearer 5) Critical Reader/Hearer I
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 7 10:14 AM
              How many readers/hearers do we have now?

              1) Narratee

              2) Implied Reader/Hearer

              3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

              4) Actual Reader/Hearer

              5) Critical Reader/Hearer

              I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
              Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
              the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
              better.


              jeff Staley writes:
              these categories are better, Jeffery. I would only want to reiterate, that
              #1, #4, #5 can also be resistant "readers," that is, objecting, rejecting
              and revising in response to hearing/reading. #1 and #4 can be stupid,
              misunderstanding readers/hearers. I trust that whatever #5 means, its
              objections, critical responses are not based upon stupidity--though this
              could be a value judgment . . .

              Jeff Staley
            • Paul Anderson
              ... Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as distinctives?
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 7 11:09 AM
                johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com writes:
                >
                >How many readers/hearers do we have now?
                >
                >1) Narratee
                >
                >2) Implied Reader/Hearer
                >
                >3) Ideal Reader/Hearer
                >
                >4) Actual Reader/Hearer
                >
                >5) Critical Reader/Hearer
                >
                >I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
                >Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
                >the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
                >better.

                Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers
                today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as
                distinctives?

                Paul Anderson
              • Staley, Jeffrey
                Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as distinctives?
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 7 12:18 PM
                  Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of critical readers
                  today. Any sense of how to find overlap between these types, as well as
                  distinctives?

                  Just an additional note, Paul, when I said that "I would only want to
                  reiterate, that #1, #4, #5 can also be resistant "readers," that is,
                  objecting, rejecting and revising in response to hearing/reading" I would
                  also say that surprise, reconsideration, revising, and objecting" can also
                  be part of the "implied/ideal readers/hearers" repetoire, but that
                  ultimately, when the reading is done, "implied/ideal readers/hearers" are
                  finally "assenting readers/hearers," whereas many real audiences and
                  critical readers can finish the book and reject it; and not be transformed
                  by it in the way the narrative rhetorics "demands/invites."

                  Oh my, I really must get back to grading final exams!

                  jeff Staley


                  Jeff Staley
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Paul, did you mean to address me (Jeffery) or Jeff (Staley)? I wrote: How many readers/hearers do we have now? 1) Narratee 2) Implied Reader/Hearer 3) Ideal
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 7 10:05 PM
                    Paul, did you mean to address me (Jeffery) or Jeff
                    (Staley)?

                    I wrote:

                    How many readers/hearers do we have now?

                    1) Narratee

                    2) Implied Reader/Hearer

                    3) Ideal Reader/Hearer

                    4) Actual Reader/Hearer

                    5) Critical Reader/Hearer

                    I suppose that there could be a Critical Hearer, too.
                    Anyway, a Critical Reader would understand more than
                    the writer understood -- in effect, could understand
                    better.

                    You (Paul) asked:

                    > Thanks, Jeff, and there are certainly many sorts of
                    > critical readers today. Any sense of how to find
                    > overlap between these types, as well as
                    distinctives?

                    All of them can probably be deconstructed, but that's
                    not my goal.

                    There is certainly overlap.

                    I'd say that an actual reader could be an implied
                    reader in some cases. A private letter might have only
                    one implied reader who happens to be the actual
                    reader.

                    This actual reader might also strive to be a critical
                    reader -- striving to understand things that the
                    writer himself might not have understand.

                    An ideal reader is an idealization and so would
                    (probably) never be actualized though some critical
                    readers might strive for this status.

                    Could a narratee be any of the others? If the narrator
                    happens to be the author who happens to be addressing
                    a real person who happens to be reading the text, I
                    guess that the various permutations already mentioned
                    are possible.

                    Of course, if we want to take the deconstructionist
                    turn, all readers -- like all writers -- are
                    idealizations, ideological constructs that attempt to
                    fix the flux of uncentered and multiple subjects....

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    =====
                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                    447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                    Yangsandong 411
                    South Korea

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    ... I reply: I was thinking of the Addressee as the equivalent to the Narratee in a dramatic reading of a text. But I m quite willing to stick to
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 9 3:20 PM
                      I previously wrote:

                      > > Couldn't we have:

                      > > Ideal Hearer

                      > > Implied Hearer

                      > > Addressee

                      > > Actual Hearer

                      Jeff Staley responded:

                      > Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be
                      > helpful when thinking about narrative. First,
                      > however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
                      > should be kept--over against the narrator.

                      I reply:

                      I was thinking of the "Addressee" as the equivalent to
                      the "Narratee" in a dramatic reading of a text. But
                      I'm quite willing to stick to "Narratee".

                      Jeffery Hodges

                      =====
                      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                      447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                      Yangsandong 411
                      South Korea

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                      http://greetings.yahoo.com
                    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      ... I reply: I was thinking of the Addressee as the equivalent to the Narratee in a dramatic reading of a text. But I m quite willing to stick to
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 9 3:44 PM
                        I previously wrote:

                        > > Couldn't we have:

                        > > Ideal Hearer

                        > > Implied Hearer

                        > > Addressee

                        > > Actual Hearer

                        Jeff Staley responded:

                        > Jeffery, I do find SOME of these distinctions can be
                        > helpful when thinking about narrative. First,
                        > however, I think the term narratee is valuable and
                        > should be kept--over against the narrator.

                        I reply:

                        I was thinking of the "Addressee" as the equivalent to
                        the "Narratee" in a dramatic reading of a text. But
                        I'm quite willing to stick to "Narratee".

                        Jeffery Hodges

                        =====
                        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
                        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
                        Yangsandong 411
                        South Korea

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                        http://greetings.yahoo.com
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