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Re:[John_Lit] Readers

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  • gds@dor.kaiser.org
    Jeffery: A believe he is French. At least, Seymour Chatman used to tell stories about him and Prince talking narratology on a sidewake cafe when he was on
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 3, 2001
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      Jeffery:

      A believe he is French. At least, Seymour Chatman used to tell stories about
      him and Prince talking narratology on a sidewake cafe when he was on sabbatical
      in France, while Prince was teaching in Paris.

      - Gary
      ____________________Reply Separator____________________
      Subject: [John_Lit] Readers
      Author: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com >
      Date: 12/2/01 3:50 PM

      Just a boring question from me:

      Is Prince French or American? In starting this thread,
      I referred to him as French -- based upon the
      following bibliographical entry:

      Raman Selden, "A Reader's Guide to Contemporary
      Literary Theory" (Brighton, Sussex: Harvester Press,
      1985), p. 126, refers to the "French original in
      'Poetique' no. 14 (1973), 177-96" of his "Introduction
      to the study of the narratee".

      However, I have also since seen the following
      reference to Prince's ideas:

      Martin McQuillan, "Introduction: There is no such
      thing as reader-response theory", in Julian Wolfreys,
      ed., "Literary Theories: A Reader and Guide" (New
      York: New York University Press, 1999), p. 146, refers
      to "The American Narratologist Gerald Prince".

      So, what is his nationality? Is he French but working
      in an American university?

      Jeffery Hodges

      =====
      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
      447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
      Yangsandong 411
      South Korea

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    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      A note of skepticism about some of the claims being made concerning memory in antiquity. There have been a lot of modern studies of memory by modern
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 3, 2001
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        A note of skepticism about some of the claims being
        made concerning memory in antiquity.

        There have been a lot of modern studies of memory by
        modern psychologists and neurologists, and from what I
        have read of their work, I would be very surprised if
        it were common for people to remember every word
        spoken in a lengthy discourse upon a single occasion.

        Why do I say this? Because it has been shown that most
        of us have rather limited short-term memories -- I
        recall (or hope that I do) reading that our short-term
        memories can hold only 5 to 8 items of information at
        a time. So, for an individual to remember everything,
        he or she would have to transfer everything said by
        the speaker into his or her long-term memory at a
        rather rapid rate.

        Now, I realize that people in antiquity had techniques
        for remembering, and I guess that they had rhetorical
        devices for speaking in a way to make their words
        memorable, but I still find unlikely that people could
        commonly recall every word spoken in a long discourse
        upon a single occasion.

        Has anybody tested this assumption in contemporary
        oral cultures? I would be interested in knowing if my
        skepticism is misdirected.

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • Bob Schacht
        ... Jeffrey, I d suggest you read Part II (Chapters 3-6) on Memory and Orality in Crossan s The Birth of Christianity as a good starting place. He will confirm
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 3, 2001
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          At 04:14 PM 12/3/01 -0800, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
          >A note of skepticism about some of the claims being
          >made concerning memory in antiquity.
          >
          >There have been a lot of modern studies of memory by
          >modern psychologists and neurologists, and from what I
          >have read of their work, I would be very surprised if
          >it were common for people to remember every word
          >spoken in a lengthy discourse upon a single occasion.
          >
          >Why do I say this? Because it has been shown that most
          >of us have rather limited short-term memories -- I
          >recall (or hope that I do) reading that our short-term
          >memories can hold only 5 to 8 items of information at
          >a time. So, for an individual to remember everything,
          >he or she would have to transfer everything said by
          >the speaker into his or her long-term memory at a
          >rather rapid rate.
          >
          >Now, I realize that people in antiquity had techniques
          >for remembering, and I guess that they had rhetorical
          >devices for speaking in a way to make their words
          >memorable, but I still find unlikely that people could
          >commonly recall every word spoken in a long discourse
          >upon a single occasion.
          >
          >Has anybody tested this assumption in contemporary
          >oral cultures? I would be interested in knowing if my
          >skepticism is misdirected.
          >
          >Jeffery Hodges

          Jeffrey,
          I'd suggest you read Part II (Chapters 3-6) on Memory and Orality in
          Crossan's The Birth of Christianity as a good starting place. He will
          confirm many of your worst fears. The chapters are written as a deliberate
          counterpoint to those who place great faith in the precision of oral memory.

          Bob
          Robert M. Schacht, Ph.D.
          Northern Arizona University
          Flagstaff, AZ
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          ... Actually, Jeffery . ... Thanks for the reference. I really should take a look at it. However, I want to clarify something since I seem to have been
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 3, 2001
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            Bob Schacht wrote:

            > Jeffrey,

            Actually, "Jeffery".

            > I'd suggest you read Part II (Chapters 3-6) on
            > Memory and Orality in Crossan's The Birth of
            > Christianity as a good starting place. He will
            > confirm many of your worst fears. The chapters are
            > written as a deliberate counterpoint to those who
            > place great faith in the precision of oral memory.

            Thanks for the reference. I really should take a look
            at it.

            However, I want to clarify something since I seem to
            have been misunderstood by Joe Gagne. I have great
            respect for the power of memory in oral culture -- and
            even for its power in contemporary culture, for we
            (post)moderns have far better long-term memories than
            we realize.

            If we can get things into our long-term memories, we
            can do a pretty good job of recalling them. I think
            that the good memory power of oral cultures is
            primarily long-term memory. If people who are trained
            to focus upon remembering are repeatedly presented
            with oral materials, then I think that they will
            eventually come to remember it very well -- even to
            its minute details.

            But -- to iterate -- concerning some claims that have
            been made about memory in oral culture:

            "I would be very surprised if it were common for
            people to remember every word spoken in a lengthy
            discourse upon a single occasion."

            I hope that I have now been better understood.

            Jeffery Hodges

            =====
            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
            447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
            Yangsandong 411
            South Korea

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
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          • Staley, Jeffrey
            ... memory in antiquity. Studies have also shown that remembering in primary oral cultures is not word for word --even when those people doing the
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 4, 2001
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              Jeffrey Staley writes:

              >Another note of skepticism about some of the claims being made concerning
              memory in antiquity.

              Studies have also shown that "remembering" in primary oral cultures is not
              "word for word"--even when those people doing the "remembering think it is.
              When tape recordings are made of different performances, the "recitations"
              are rarely, if ever, exactly the same. I'm not sure if this was Lord's
              analysis, or some more recent study. Tom Thatcher may help us here.

              Jeff
            • John N. Lupia
              To List: John Dominic Crossan, The birth of Christianity : discovering what happened in the years immediately after the execution of Jesus (San Francisco:
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 4, 2001
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                To List:

                John Dominic Crossan, The birth of Christianity : discovering
                what happened in the years immediately after the execution of
                Jesus (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1998), Part II
                (Chapters 3-6) on Memory and Orality; James D. G. Dunn,
                Jesus in Oral Memory: The Initial Stages of the Jesus Tradition;
                W. H. Kelber, The Oral and the Written Gospel (Philadelphia:
                Fortress, 1983); W. J. Ong, Orality and Literacy: The
                Technologizing of the Word (1982; London: Routledge, 1988); A.
                B. Lord, `The Gospels as Oral Traditional Literature', in W. O.
                Walker, ed., The Relationships Among the Gospels (San
                Antonio: Trinity University, 1978); etc, are not well informed on
                writing practices in the first century.

                As part of the discussion of the historical Jesus: concerning
                what he actually said or did, the methods used to record them
                become paramount. Ill informed opinions of the skeptics and
                cynics that rely exclusively on memory, oral culture and tradition,
                or mnemonic techniques for the transmission of Jesus' words
                and deeds find plenty of room to question the veracity of the
                Gospel texts.

                It has been erroneously assumed by several academic schools
                over the past few centuries that the Evangelists wrote from
                memory, a fact that cannot be substantiated and necessitates
                closing ones eyes to the historical realities of the currency of
                shorthand, an art that was already well over three hundred years
                in development and pervasive usage throughout the
                Graeco-Roman world.

                Notarii or tabellio (AGORAIOS and AGORONOMOS and
                SEMEIOGRAFOS or TAKUGRAFOS) were short-hand secretaries
                who could take dictation. Suetonius, Ennius, says that Quintus
                Ennius (239-169 BC) introduced notae, probably since he is
                regarded by the Romans as the father of Roman literature.
                However, cursive hand script for speed was used in Athens in
                B.C. 284, a century before Ennius' Aetolian campaign. So,
                shorthand was in wide usage throughout the Hellenistic world
                well before the Evangelists wrote their respective Gospels.
                Furthermore, Marcus Tullius Tiro, Cicero's amanuensis was one
                of many notarii noted to have contributed to the development of
                the art of stenography. He is credited with the invention of many
                shorthand symbols including the ampersand "&" sometimes
                called the "notae Tironianae" or "Tironian sign" a shorthand
                symbol of "et per se" in Latin where the "et" is emblemed in
                cursive script. This symbol substitution of words was found to
                be more efficacious than the older "arte brachygraphie".
                Brachygraphy was merely the omission of certain letters
                (examples employ ligatures, and in Christian scribes in nomina
                sacra) or the replacement of certain vowels or consonants by
                strokes which allowed for quicker writing and the text to fit into
                columns more conveniently. After Tiro we find shorthand or
                tachygraphy taught in Rome in various schools. Seneca claims
                to have complied or catalogued five thousand tachygraphic
                symbols. Suetonius, Vespasian, says that Vespasian could
                write shorthand with such dexterity and speed that he competed
                with scribes for sport. Actuarii was another name given to the
                notarii, short-hand clerks who recorded speeches in the senate,
                or who kept private accounts. To distinguish public from private
                records by notaries the Greeks used the phrase "EN AGUIA" as
                seen in P. Oxy, 722.12. Later, the title notarii became exclusive
                to the private secretaries of the emperor, and the title
                "exceptores" became that for short-hand clerks. "Librarii ab
                epistolis", sometimes called "ad manu", "a manu", and
                "amanuensis" were secretaries who took dictation for letters.
                The Berlin papyrus 8507 is a shorthand document of a
                senatorial speech during the reign of Claudius A.D. 41-54 which
                shows how widespread this art was by that date.

                Some early written accounts and speeches may have been
                recorded by apostles who acted as actuarii for the group. It is
                plausible that some Jewish disciples of Jesus had acted this
                way based on the Roman model of actuarii and notarii. These
                would have been stenographic transcriptions of two types of
                discourse: (1) acromatics (AKRAMAI), that is, private lectures
                given in "veiled language" only to his chosen disciples in the
                manner of Aristotle. For example, John 16,25 "I have spoken to
                you in veiled language" is part of a long acromatical discourse,
                which itself appears to be the "ipsissimum verbum Christum"
                recorded by a (St. John) scribal actuarii; (2) public preaching in
                the form of parables. In this regard the notion of the Gospels
                containing the "ipsissimum verbum Christum" is once again
                reopened.

                Cordially in Christ,
                John
                <><
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