Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] Re: What did the BD believe (20:8)?

Expand Messages
  • Paul Schmehl
    I think it s unlikely that the texts would have been altered from son to sister. Son would have been hO hIOUS, whereas sister is H ADELFH. That would be quite
    Message 1 of 47 , Nov 4, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      I think it's unlikely that the texts would have been altered from son to

      Son would have been hO hIOUS, whereas sister is H ADELFH. That would be
      quite a change in the text. Perhaps TEKNON or PAIS could have been the
      original, which was then altered according to a scribe's beliefs, but
      there's no indication in the UBS 4th that there were variants in that
      section. Futhermore, given the culture of the time, I think any change
      would have gone in the direction of son, not sister. Therefore, I think
      it's unlikely that the text was altered.

      It's also important to note that while John mentions the four woman standing
      around the cross, he does not say that no one else was there, nor would it
      be reasonable to come to that conclusion. So the fact that he doesn't
      mention anyone else does not preclude the possibility that the "disciple
      that he loved" was there as well, and indeed he acknowledges that disciple
      in the very next verse.

      To say that verse 25 had its text altered to agree with the gender of the
      disciple in the next verse is to argue from an assumption that the four
      mentioned previously were the only four around the cross at the time,
      something that is nowhere indicated by the text. Wasn't it common in the
      Hebrew culture that the sons, beginning with the eldest, would support the
      mother if the father was dead? It would seem then that Jesus was simply
      reminding his younger brother of his duty to support his mother once Jesus
      was dead. Or perhaps he was asking the disciple, who was not his brother
      but his dear friend, to take care of his mother. I don't think either of
      those possibilities can be precluded simply from these verses. I don't
      think there's any need to argue for an altered text to support that
      conclusion. I do think, however, that arguing the disciple was a woman is
      not supported by the text at all, and requires quite a leap in logic.

      Paul Schmehl pauls@...

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "FMMCCOY" <FMMCCOY@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 2:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: What did the BD believe (20:8)?
      > Also in defence of this suggestion, as you point out above, the first part
      > of John 19:26 apprears to assume that the Beloved Disciple is one of the
      > people listed as standing by the cross in 19:25: all of whom, in the
      > of 19:25 we possess, are females. Yet, in 19:27, as you also point out
      > above, the Beloved Disciple is said to be a male. If there was an earlier
      > version of 19:25 which had "his mother's son" instead of "his mother's
      > sister" than this problem disappears. In this case, at a later date, when
      > it was mistakenly believed that the Beloved Disciple had been John bar
      > Zebedee and, so, couldn't have been a son of Mary, the original phrase
      > mother's son" was altered to "his mother's sister."
    • Thomas W Butler
      Dear Paul, I m still trying to catch up on previous e-mails. ... Obviously I inferred that from the contrast between 20: 6 where Simon Peter went in and saw,
      Message 47 of 47 , Dec 18, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Paul,
        I'm still trying to catch up on previous e-mails.

        On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 "Paul Schmehl" <p.l.schmehl@...> wrote:

        > (snip)
        > I'm afraid I'm not following you here. First let's look at what
        > the text does not say.
        > 1) It does not say that Peter did not believe.

        Obviously I inferred that from the contrast between 20: 6 where
        Simon Peter went in and saw, while in 20: 8 the "other disciple"
        who reached the tomb first (the BD) also went in, and saw and
        believed. The parallel structure in those two verses seems to be
        suggesting that there is a contrast between how Simon Peter and
        the BD responded to what they saw.

        We are told in 20: 9 that neither of them understood the scripture
        that explained the meaning of what they were seeing - that Jesus
        must rise from the dead. I take that to mean that neither of them
        was expecting the resurrection based upon their knowledge of
        the scriptures. ISTM that it can be inferred that the identification
        of those scriptures and the declaration that what Peter and the BD
        saw was confirmation of the resurrection came after this event.
        For the BD this look into the empty tomb generated belief, for
        Peter we are at least not told that it generated belief.

        I'm just pointing out that the hair I'm splitting here was split by
        the way the text was written.

        > 2) It does not say that the BD believed *until* (s)he went into
        > the tomb

        Are you suggesting that something I wrote indicates that the BD
        stopped believing after (s)he went into the tomb? If I said any
        thing to suggest that, I must have said what I meant poorly. I
        have no intention of saying that the event stopped her believing.

        If you mean that the text does not say that the BD believed
        *before* (s)he went into the tomb, my reply would have to
        be much longer, since I have made an extensive exegesis of
        Jn. 11, 12 and 13 that suggests otherwise.

        > 3) It does not say that the BD "understood more fully what the
        > meaning of Jesus' ministry was than Peter did.

        That point is made in the way Jesus interacts with each of them.
        I've already pointed out the contrast between 12: 7 and 13: 8.
        In 12: 7 Jesus is responding to Judas, not Peter, but he is defending
        the anointing ritual performed by Mary of Bethany. In 13: 8 Jesus
        is clearly rebukes Peter for not submitting to the footwashing ritual
        that Jesus is performing.

        Consider also 21: 20-21 in contrast to 21: 22. Peter is presented
        as concerned about what to do about the BD. There is something
        about the BD that bothers Peter. Could it be that the ritual that
        Jesus has just completed -Do you love me / Feed my sheep- gives
        Peter a different status among the disciples than before, one that
        may appear to be in conflict with the status that Jesus has previously
        given to Mary of Bethany, the BD, in 12: 7? (Again, my exegesis
        of 11: 55- 12: 8 is much longer than I'm presenting here.)

        > 4) It does not say whether Peter and the BD were in the tomb
        > at the same time.

        No, it says in 20: 6 that Simon Peter went into the tomb, then in
        20: 8 it says that the other disciple also went in. In 20: 10 both
        of them are described as returning to their homes (NRSV). The
        Greek is more vague than that. It simply says that the disciples
        went off again (toward their own? toward the other disciples?)
        Again, the impression is that first Peter entered, then the BD
        entered, then both of them left.

        > 5) It does not say whether Peter and the BD discussed what
        > they saw.

        Agreed. I can't imagine them not talking about it with each other
        and everyone else they encountered, especially other disciples,
        but you are right. The text does not say that they discussed what
        they saw with each other.
        > What the text *does* say is that:
        > 1) Peter and the BD ran together


        > 2) The BD arrived at the tomb first and looked in


        > 3) The BD went in to the tomb after Peter did


        > 4) *After* entering the tomb, the BD "saw and believed"

        The word *after* is not used. The belief of the BD is
        reported after the reader is told that the BD saw the same
        things that Peter saw. We do not know from the text when
        that belief began.

        [Paul asked]
        > I'm not arguing that the BD *is* John, mind you, but I am
        > curious to hear your response to the question - why is John
        > never mentioned in the FG?

        "John" IS mentioned prominently in the FG. John the Baptist.

        > I'm not particularly attached to any of these theories, mind you,
        > I'm simply offering what appear to me to be logical alternatives
        > to your conclusion that the BD *must* have been a woman and
        > the phrase "BD" was used to "conceal" or "hide" the identity of
        > the BD for fear that the book would be rejected as heretical.
        > There *are* other equally logical reasons for the use of the term
        > BD, some of which make a good deal of sense.

        Paul, I appreciate your efforts to articulate the kind of assumptions
        that may well have been used when interpreting the Fourth Gospel
        throughout Christian history. To advance a new idea, one must be
        able to address such assumptions. I cannot claim to have disproved
        those assumptions. I hope that I have offered replies that suggest
        that the conclusions I have drawn from studying the text are at least
        as logical and appropriate as those that other scholars have long
        assumed were the correct ones.

        Yours in Christ's service,
        Tom Butler
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.