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Re: [John_Lit] Alfred Loisy Online

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  • Yuri Kuchinsky
    ... Dear Leonard, I m interested to hear from you which parts of Loisy s two books that are now available online do you find outdated , and also what sort of
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 26, 2001
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      On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 Maluflen@... wrote:

      > Some of what Loisy wrote is also outdated today and even rather silly.

      Dear Leonard,

      I'm interested to hear from you which parts of Loisy's two books that are
      now available online do you find "outdated", and also what sort of
      silliness did you discover there. I have studied this material in some
      detail, and so far I have found no such things. So your help would be
      appreciated.

      Yours truly,

      Yuri.

      Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku -=O=- Toronto

      Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge --
      Alfred North Whitehead
    • Robert Raphael
      Where can I access the works of Loisy on line ? Robert Raphael ... From: Jim West To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 26, 2001
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        Where can I access the works of Loisy on line ?

        Robert Raphael

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim West <jwest@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 7:48 AM
        WSubject: Re: [John_Lit] Alfred Loisy Online


        >At 09:51 PM 9/24/01 -0700, you wrote:
        >>Hello,
        >>
        >>Thanks to the efforts of Hans Radax (with some help from me), the works of
        >>Alfred Loisy are now available online for free viewing.
        >
        >Peter and Hans,
        >
        >WOW! what a tremendous resource!!
        >I am immediately recommending it to my students and I will add it to my
        >website this afternoon.
        >
        >thanks for such USEFUL work!
        >
        >
        >Jim
        >
        >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        >
        >Jim West, ThD
        >
        >Adjunct Professor of Biblical Studies, Roane State Community College
        >
        >Home Page:
        >Biblical Studies Resources
        >http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
        >
        >
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      • Emmanuel Fritsch
        ... I have read recently a book of Loisy wrote during the first world war, about scientific efforts to legitimate the german point of view, compared to the
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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          > Some of what Loisy wrote is also outdated today and even rather silly. He was
          > certainly brilliant and perceptive as an exegete, and also ahead of his time
          > in many respects. I would hardly call him the greatest French New Testament
          > scholar ever to live, though. I can think of at least two French scholars,
          > his contemporaries, who were better exegetes than he and more balanced in
          > their exegetical judgment. The evaluation of his greatness expressed above is
          > one that tends to equate opposition to Catholic Church teaching with
          > greatness. This is a somewhat simplistic criterion, in my view. I am grateful
          > to Peter, however, for making Loisy's works available online.

          I have read recently a book of Loisy wrote during the first world
          war, about scientific efforts to legitimate the german point of
          view, compared to the english similar works.
          This essay is brilliant. Particularly, he analyse how dangerous
          are the racist views of germanscientist for the adter war period.

          OK. This is off topic. I read also the book of Lagrange about
          modernism crisis, and its evaluation of Loisy, that he considers
          as a german exegesis follower.

          May you give the name of both french contemporary you think ?

          a+
          manu
        • Emmanuel Fritsch
          ... Hum. I began to read his book about Mark. This is 90% of paraphrasis. Really deceptive when compared to modern works. And the theory of the two pauline
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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            > I'm interested to hear from you which parts of Loisy's two books that are
            > now available online do you find "outdated", and also what sort of
            > silliness did you discover there. I have studied this material in some
            > detail, and so far I have found no such things. So your help would be
            > appreciated.

            Hum. I began to read his book about Mark. This is 90% of
            paraphrasis. Really deceptive when compared to modern works.

            And the theory of the two pauline redactors looks weak when
            you see that it is based just on theology arguments, and not
            on redactional features.

            a+
            manu

            ref :
            - L'Evangile de Marc
            - Quelques remarques sur la litterature epistolaire du Nouveau Testament
            both edited by Nourry.
          • Bob MacDonald
            a+ ... you see that it is based just on theology arguments, and not on redactional features.
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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              a+
              manu wrote:
              >>And the theory of the two pauline redactors looks weak when
              you see that it is based just on theology arguments, and not
              on redactional features. <<

              I am curious at the implication of criteria for distinction of importance in
              criticism.

              Is there a priority to the importance of particular techniques of criticism

              i.e. is redactional better than theological, stronger or weaker than
              rhetorical? Who agrees?

              What is the full list of types of criticism?

              When does a human being - a writer, collaborator, redactor - from the first
              century stop being one person because of a change in style or an aporia of
              direction or a mistake in chiastic structure?

              I guess more is better - as long as we don't forget why we were asking the
              questions to begin with.

              ------
              This is related to a pair of questions I had asked on another list:

              "In scholarly discussions, what are the criteria for evidence to support an
              interpretation?

              or a related question

              Where does one draw the line between inferring a motive from the text and
              reading a motive into the text?"


              Bob

              mailto::BobMacDonald@...
              + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

              Catch the foxes for us,
              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
              http://members.home.net/bobmacdonald/homepage.htm

              -----Original Message-----
              From: fritsch@... [mailto:fritsch@...]On Behalf Of
              Emmanuel Fritsch
              Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:13 AM
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Alfred Loisy Online



              > I'm interested to hear from you which parts of Loisy's two books that are
              > now available online do you find "outdated", and also what sort of
              > silliness did you discover there. I have studied this material in some
              > detail, and so far I have found no such things. So your help would be
              > appreciated.

              Hum. I began to read his book about Mark. This is 90% of
              paraphrasis. Really deceptive when compared to modern works.

              And the theory of the two pauline redactors looks weak when
              you see that it is based just on theology arguments, and not
              on redactional features.

              a+
              manu

              ref :
              - L'Evangile de Marc
              - Quelques remarques sur la litterature epistolaire du Nouveau Testament
              both edited by Nourry.

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            • Maluflen@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/28/2001 5:07:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Emmanuel.Fritsch@ign.fr writes:
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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                In a message dated 9/28/2001 5:07:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                Emmanuel.Fritsch@... writes:

                << May you give the name of both french contemporary you think ? >>

                I was thinking mainly of Lagrange and De Vaux, but just slightly later came
                Benoit and host of other French exegetical giants. All of these, I am sure,
                learned a lot from Loisy, but most avoided his more extreme and unfounded
                views.

                Leonard Maluf
              • ProfRam@aol.com
                Also, among the best: Ceslas Spicq for his commentaries on Hebrews and on the Pastorals, and for his word studies. The Etudes Bibliques commentary series in
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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                  Also, among the best: Ceslas Spicq for his commentaries on Hebrews and on the
                  Pastorals, and for his word studies. The Etudes Bibliques commentary series
                  in general (for example Rigaux on Thessalonians and Allo on Revelation), and
                  the Dictionnaire de la Bible.

                  Ramsey Michaels
                • Emmanuel Fritsch
                  ... All of them from the Ecole Biblique ;-? Lagrange - De Vaux - Benoit - X Who is X in this serie, if not Boismard ;-? http://archeboc.free.fr But my question
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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                    > << May you give the name of both french contemporary you think ? >>
                    >
                    > I was thinking mainly of Lagrange and De Vaux, but just slightly later came
                    > Benoit and host of other French exegetical giants. All of these, I am sure,
                    > learned a lot from Loisy, but most avoided his more extreme and unfounded
                    > views.

                    All of them from the Ecole Biblique ;-?

                    Lagrange - De Vaux - Benoit - X
                    Who is X in this serie, if not Boismard ;-?

                    http://archeboc.free.fr

                    But my question : reading the book of Loisy about Mark, hard to
                    think it has been seen as a ground work during decades. has it been ?

                    a+
                    manu
                  • Yuri Kuchinsky
                    ... Leonard, I suppose that, in some respects, Loisy s views -- especially those he developed later in life -- can indeed be described as extreme . Because he
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 28, 2001
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                      On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 Maluflen@... wrote:

                      > In a message dated 9/28/2001 5:07:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > Emmanuel.Fritsch@... writes:
                      >
                      > << May you give the name of both french contemporary you think ? >>
                      >
                      > I was thinking mainly of Lagrange and De Vaux, but just slightly later
                      > came Benoit and host of other French exegetical giants. All of these,
                      > I am sure, learned a lot from Loisy, but most avoided his more extreme
                      > and unfounded views.

                      Leonard,

                      I suppose that, in some respects, Loisy's views -- especially those he
                      developed later in life -- can indeed be described as "extreme". Because
                      he had challenged the whole exegetical world at least in two respects.

                      1. He argued that there are massive later interpolations (something like
                      50%) in all of Pauline writings.

                      2. He also argued that the early versions of all 4 gospels were
                      essentially Jewish-Christian quartodeciman documents. And, according to
                      him, these much more Jewish-oriented primitive proto-gospels were
                      re-edited substantially around 135 CE, when Gentile-Christians appeared to
                      have seized control of the movement.

                      As to his views being "unfounded", surely this is a matter of
                      interpretation.

                      But also, let us not lose track of one important consideration. All those
                      "Modernist sins" of his that caused Loisy to be excommunicated in 1908 are
                      now the mainstream of biblical exegesis, including Catholic biblical
                      exegesis. Because, in effect, Vatican II was a resounding vindication of
                      "Modernism" and of Loisy.

                      So now, scholarship would do well to catch up with all those other
                      theories that Loisy developed in 1920s and 30s. These are still basically
                      unknown to today's generation of scholars.

                      Here is, once again, where these two books, that reflect his later views,
                      can be found,

                      "The Birth of the Christian Religion",
                      http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy/

                      "The Origins of the New Testament",
                      http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/loisy2/

                      Regards,

                      Yuri.

                      Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

                      Reality is that which, when you stop believing
                      in it, doesn't go away -=O=- Philip K. Dick
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