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Re: [John_Lit] "dokeo" and "pisteuo"

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  • Paul Schmehl
    ... From: Yuri Kuchinsky To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] dokeo
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 12, 2001
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Yuri Kuchinsky" <yuku@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:43 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] "dokeo" and "pisteuo"


      >
      > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Paul Schmehl wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > This is an unusual viewpoint I've not heard or read before. Is it
      > > based on any primary evidence?
      >
      > Paul,
      >
      > I take it that your question is in regard to the possible lateness of Tomb
      > Burial stories. Lk 23:43 is often cited in this regard. There are also
      > passages in various extra-canonical writings indicating that Jesus did not
      > have a Tomb Burial.
      >
      Ah! I would contend that that opinion is based on a misinterpretation of
      Luke 23:43. I'm not familiar with the extra-canonical writings that
      indicate this.

      Paul Schmehl pauls@...
      p.l.schmehl@...
      http://www.utdallas.edu/~pauls/
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Yuri, Just some quick points and questions -- and a lot of snipping [my previous remarks will have double angles ( ), and yours will have single angles ( )].
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 12, 2001
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        Yuri,

        Just some quick points and questions -- and a lot of
        snipping [my previous remarks will have double angles
        (> >), and yours will have single angles (>)]. I
        wrote:

        > > It would nevertheless mean that their conclusion
        > > was wrong and that Mary Magdalene was wrong

        To which, you responded:

        > I don't see it this way.

        Why not? You agree that even the Pepys text
        presupposed the bodily resurrection. If Mary Magdalene
        thought that the body had been taken away, and if the
        beloved disciple also concluded this, then in the
        context of the Johannine presupposition of a bodily
        resurrection, this conclusion was wrong.

        > But the fact that Zacharias uses "credidit" goes
        > contrary to your opinion.

        You'll have to explain why. Perhaps this is your
        explanation:

        > It seems that Zacharias thought that the word
        > credidit/pisteuo was appropriate in the context in
        > which it's used in the passage he quoted. I agree
        > with Zacharias.

        Assuming that Zacharias thought about this point and
        that you're correct about what he thought, why do you
        agree with him?

        > > You seem to be accepting that "pisteuo" was the
        > > original term.
        >
        > Yes.
        >
        > > If so, then it would most likely have meant an
        > > important theological belief on the part of the
        > > beloved disciple.
        >
        > But this is only a guess on your part.

        I wouldn't call it a "guess"; I'd call it a
        tentatively stated conclusion based upon the Johannine
        linguistic evidence as I see it. Since you have agreed
        that there is an important difference between the use
        of "pisteuo" and "dokeo" in John, you need to explain
        why this important distinction does not hold here.

        > If you think that the Pepys and Zacharias documents
        > both reflect later editing, when do you think this
        > was done? And also, in your view, was it done
        > independently by both writers?

        I don't know the answer to either question, but my
        ignorance on these two points is not relevant to the
        questions that I have raised about the use of
        "pisteuo" if the Pepys manuscript reflects the
        original version of John's Gospel.

        Best Regards,

        Jeffery Hodges

        =====
        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
        447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
        Yangsandong 411
        South Korea

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      • Yuri Kuchinsky
        ... Because his conclusion was right in light of what he knew and saw. As to Mary Magdalene, it s not relevant in this case if she was right or wrong. ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 16, 2001
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          On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

          > > > It would nevertheless mean that their conclusion
          > > > was wrong and that Mary Magdalene was wrong
          >
          > To which, you responded:
          >
          > > I don't see it this way.
          >
          > Why not?

          Because his conclusion was right in light of what he knew and saw. As to
          Mary Magdalene, it's not relevant in this case if she was right or wrong.

          > > But the fact that Zacharias uses "credidit" goes
          > > contrary to your opinion.
          >
          > You'll have to explain why. Perhaps this is your
          > explanation:
          >
          > > It seems that Zacharias thought that the word
          > > credidit/pisteuo was appropriate in the context in
          > > which it's used in the passage he quoted. I agree
          > > with Zacharias.
          >
          > Assuming that Zacharias thought about this point and
          > that you're correct about what he thought, why do you
          > agree with him?

          Because he probably knew Latin better than I.

          > > If you think that the Pepys and Zacharias documents
          > > both reflect later editing, when do you think this
          > > was done? And also, in your view, was it done
          > > independently by both writers?
          >
          > I don't know the answer to either question

          So then how do you know it was later editing if you don't know how and
          when it was done?

          Basically, Jeffery, you seem to be arguing that one word rather than
          another is more appropriate in the context of a certain verse. But surely
          this is a matter of opinion. I think we can agree to disagree about this,
          and I'm willing to let you have the last word on this subject.

          Best,

          Yuri.

          Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

          The goal proposed by Cynic philosophy is apathy, which is
          equivalent to becoming God -=O=- Julian
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Yuri, ... In the strictest sense of the term, I don t know because I haven t studied the issue. I was, primarily, raising questions that you would need to
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 16, 2001
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            Yuri,

            You asked:

            > So then how do you know it was later editing if you
            > don't know how and when it was done?

            In the strictest sense of the term, I don't know
            because I haven't studied the issue. I was, primarily,
            raising questions that you would need to investigate
            and answer in order to tighten your arguments. This is
            how I see the purpose of scholarly listserves such as
            this one, and it's why I have tried to participate in
            discussions whenever I felt that I had something to
            say or a question to raise.

            > Basically, Jeffery, you seem to be arguing that one
            > word rather than another is more appropriate in the
            > context of a certain verse.

            That's correct.

            > But surely this is a matter of opinion.

            Some opinions are better grounded than others. I have
            given my grounds, and those grounds would need to be
            evaluated.

            > I think we can agree to disagree about this, and I'm
            > willing to let you have the last word on this
            > subject.

            I rarely have that honor.

            Best Regards,

            Jeffery Hodges

            =====
            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Hanshin University (Korean Theological University)
            447-791 Kyunggido Osan-City
            Yangsandong 411
            South Korea

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